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Post by vespuleth on Nov 3, 2006 22:25:40 GMT -5
sorry will... i was talking about whoever was completely disregarding other religions, not you. by all means, poop if you want/need to in the spam forum.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Nov 4, 2006 9:17:47 GMT -5
Just don't pm any poop to us.
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Post by Maindric Games © on Nov 6, 2006 20:38:53 GMT -5
Man, that must have sucked, I hate essays. >> <<
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 14, 2006 14:56:02 GMT -5
I dont mean to completly disregaurd other religions, ves. It's just that it is hypocriticle to skirt serious discussion of religion, simply because some people may be offended(unless of course what you believe in is mediocrity, in which case it is completly un-hypocriticle) I think it is important to be real and truthfull about religion (and our opinions on them) rather than being so careful that we never say anything of consequence at all.
For instance Christianity was, not so many centuries ago running rampant, with crusades, inquistions and the like. This was a terrible thing, it did not neccessarily reflect the individual practioners of that relegion scattered across the region of the world. But the established machine, the church and its base of power need to be held responsible for their actions(genocide etc.)and not let off the hook because of "religious freedom" Likewise in this day and age, islam is in a similar state. once again not reflective of all muslims, but none the less the powers in the muslim world are pushing a serious "convert or die" message. I know that none of this has anything to do with what we were talking about. I say it because it is an unpopular thing to say IMO, but also true IMO. we need to say what is true, and what we believe to be true. Im not supporting bigotry, we need to discuss with open minds, and im willing to listen to other opinions on wicca, new age, or anything else. And I will admit that perhaps I over generalised when I was posting before. while my opinion holds about teenagers in black leather, I was thinking about the other kind of practioners, the more serious kind, and about the family I used to know, and I do believe that they did believe in a power over themselves. I generalised to make my point, and to some extent maybe I did'nt wish to believe in the existence of hardcore wiccan practices exististing in our society today. due to its(my percieved?)roots in the darker pagan cultures of old europe. from my research (which is not extensive I admit) I would ask you(all of you) what this religion offers society. not trying to start a witchhunt, just a conversation. you may find the things I say outlandish, offensive or incorrect, but Im looking to discuss these things not defend my own set in stone opinion. if you dont agree, change my mind.
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Post by vespuleth on Nov 15, 2006 1:52:37 GMT -5
what does any religion offer society?
the moment religion starts offering things to society, it misses the point.
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Post by Maindric Games © on Nov 15, 2006 7:54:13 GMT -5
Religion = Something that can not be proven to be true; evidence free; beleifes.
That is what I learned by looking at things...
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Post by vespuleth on Nov 15, 2006 15:18:04 GMT -5
it's funny that you learned that... because its not true...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2006 20:53:30 GMT -5
It's more like:
Religion = Belief System Belief = Something that cannot be proven true nor proven untrue Opinion = Stance on an issue or Feeling about something
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 16, 2006 2:06:43 GMT -5
OK! a real debate!
So to answer Will(Or Sir Poopsly Poopinngton von Poopworthy of the grand republic of Pooptovia ): No I dont think that I alone get to decide what is considered a religion, as far as other people are concerned, but mustn't I decide what I consider a relgion?(mustn't we all?) If we simply accept other peoples definitions, and if anything that anyone calls a religion we feel cannot question, then the word loses all meaning. I do not believe that religion= belief system. Religion is the means by which a man woman or child relates to their god, thru ritual. But just because religion icludes ritual, does not mean that all rituals are religions(all that are chickens have feathers, but not all that have feathers are chickens) Bhuddism for example is a ritualistic practice intended to bring the participant enlightment. But It shares very little in common with religion at all. Im not saying that its practioners should be shunned or encouraged to stop what they are doing(just as people should not be kept from thier political activities)Simply that it is not the same thing as a person who recognises a higher power in their life who requires something of them. In simple and practical terms, somehow over the years we have gathered together a disimilar group of religions, beliefs, cultural activies and traditions, Called them all religions, and told no one to talk about it. Now my disputation of the same brand being applied to things as differant as judeaism,christianity,wicca,tai chi etc etc ad infinitum
Is not a condemnation of any of the above,its just that pretending that they are all "the same thing" is mad at best.
However.....
(get ready to flame me)
(here it comes)
WHAT IF I DID! Come now we are rational humans here, not automatons spoon fed on a diet of "dont say this""dont say that" and "careful not to rock the boat" If a religion (or componants of one) is horse-hooey then we are not only right to condemn it, but we must do so! im not talking about wicca here, as I said before I do not posses an all encompassing view of the practice. But their are example's I can give you. How about....the mormans? people who believe that john smith dug up a book in the middle of the woods. And that only 144,000 people are going to heaven, and that one of the good ways of securing your spot is to force 13 and 14 year old girls to marry men older then their fathers.Once again not condemning all individual mormans(although the old perverts are not in my good books), but in general this religion is flawed. and we cannot pretend we do not see because its "sombodys religion"
Oh and yeah about the christian/catholic thing, no I did not intend to suggest that something untoward be done to the descendants of medievel christians. when I said h"hold responsible" I meant historicaly responsible.I included these comments for the sake of balance, because I am a christian of of irish-catholic heritage(although i am in no way a catholic my self) and I Thought it important to demonstrate that I have no illusions about it being "my" religion against all the "bad" religions
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Post by Doan the Nado on Nov 16, 2006 2:34:57 GMT -5
The problem here is that I could just as easily condemn some of the beliefs of Christianity, especially mainstream Christianity, and that does not accomplish all that much, especially on this message board. We have a nice little RPGM2 community here, and other topics like differing viewpoints on religion should not get in the way of that. I don't mean to be a message board Nazi (especially in the Spam forum), but this topic started out as an English assignment, and it has gone way off course. We understand that you don't agree with (apparently) Mormans and Wicca. Of course, you have also stated that you have your own religion, and for that reason alone, you do not have an impartial view of religion in general. The simple act of believing in what you believe in (and what you have likely been led to believe your whole life) is of course going to affect your views of others' beliefs. To me, someone who has found fault with Christianity, too, pretty much all religions look ridiculous at some level. It may be easy to point fingers at the Greeks (with their gods), or at the Wicca of today, and say "That religion is really hard to believe. It doesn't make sense." In the big picture, however, all religion is faith-based; that is, you have to believe it whole-heartedly in order to follow it. What makes your religious beliefs any more valid than anyone else's? What if you had been born into a Wicca family and grown up with it your whole life? Would your viewpoint be different?
Regardless of how you answer these questions, I don't think that it's necessary to have a deep discussion here about the validity of the world's various religions. Religions come and go (look at Scientology), and at some point in the future, people will look back at the common beliefs of today and find them somewhat amusing. If the set of beliefs accepted by society is sure to change, is it worth the effort (and perhaps ill will) that comes with debating your current definition of what is correct right now? Is it worth diverting the attention of an RPGM2-based message board to talk about something that has nothing to do with video games at all?
That is why many people have come to the conclusion that religious discussions are best avoided. Anyone holding some religious belief has a narrow view of the religious spectrum which they are forced to focus on by the simple fact of having that religion. It would be impossible to live the religion of another for some time period to give it a "test drive" without blaspheming or throwing out your own beliefs for some time. It is thus impossible to experience a large set of religions and then determine which is most valid, because you will always be pulled by your own beliefs. People live and die by their religions, and it is best to let them do so peacefully.
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Post by vespuleth on Nov 16, 2006 3:46:46 GMT -5
given doan's last post, I'm going to make this short under the assumption that this is not a great conversation to be having...
you have a poor concept of Buddhism (notice the H placement). Buddhism does believe in a higher power, or order at least, and their goal in 'enlightenment' is to meld with that ultimate reality. For a better understanding in brief, read the Bhagavad Gita (which is a fascinating read), which is actually a Hindu scripture that deals quite a bit with Buddhism. Or you can read some of the classic scriptures.
my point is that much in the same way you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of wicca, you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of Buddhism, and my question is what religion will you defame without proper information on next?
these same brands of flaws could be said to be found in any religion. for instance, one could say 'those crazy christians and how they believe someone rose from the dead and in heaven'.
I have to disagree with you here doan. Doubt and confusion seem to be a necessary part of the religious journey, regardless of the religion. Even in Christianity, although not many will admit it, according to the Gospel accountings, some of the disciples doubted after watching Jesus ascend to heaven. But all of them lived on and were considered Christians. Doubt is okay. It is necessary.
here again, i have to disagree. You can be an explorer, capturing truth wherever you find it. In CS Lewis's Mere Christianity (the book that has shaped my faith the most), a book about what Christian's foundational beliefs are, he makes this statement (a rough quote): 'before I tell you what christians believe, I will tell you what they do not necessarily believe: that every practice of other religions is wrong.' Even as a christian, you are free to agree with the practices of other religions. furthermore, as pursuers of God, I would think it would be a responsibility. We haven't perfected religion (not even Christianity... sorry folks), and we need to continue to work at it, if religion is truly a demonstration of ardor for Theos, we should continue to work to get this demonstration right, even if it means crossing religious boundaries (I think that in the end we will find that the demonstration is found in pursuit rather than practice, mercy rather than sacrifice).
hmmm... I don't know if I agree or disagree. I will only say that if one is 'post critical' (that is, they can question something without being critical of it) they can indeed explore other religions, testing each idea or practice for truth, and I think this is the way its meant to be. How one would analyze an idea w/o a doctrine an a priori, I do not know; I cannot say because when I started my spiritual journey I was a committed atheist, and had no prior scripture; and the habit of adapting and adopting in those first years from whatever I found to be true has never faded.
guess it wasn't that short. poop.
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 16, 2006 17:26:02 GMT -5
okay..... To Doan I understand your need to reign in threads like this one (what is the occupation of a moderator but to moderate?) and you need not be apoligetic. I am dissapointed however that the old "dont talk about religion or politics" has carried the day. I had hoped for an intelligent debate(I have a habit of going toward the dangerous and inflammatory edge of my arguement in an effort to evoke the the true feelings in others, but sometimes I just get their anger) And about the " problem here is that I could just as easily condemn some of the beliefs of Christianity" exactly! Condemn away my freind! their are tons of terrible things said and done in the name of Christ and by people calling themselves christians. I will agree with you! I am against nearly all churches and many many christians. the greatest of these sins would be in my opinion the incredible mysogyny. The people who perpetuate these things and their religion itself (to which this gender based persecution is a fundamental element) are wrong and I condemn them to the full extent I can. Thats a huge boatload of christians Im talking about If something is bull we should say so. (in closing to my comments to doan I would like to thank him for talking to me in a civilised manner)
You open with a shot at my spelling? I had avoided engaging in this this kind of childish behavior already in this thread, when others made "stupid" gramatical errors, because the actual content of the conversation is whats important.
You mistook my meaning about mormons. The point was not "Mormons are silly with their book in the woods" it was "mormons condone child abuse"And thus I will mock every facet of that culture, including their haircuts.
Im quite interested to hear you qoute lewis(dont be suprised ves, Ive always liked you on this board, and many opinions Ive heard you express are very like to my own) Lewis made some pretty interesting statements in his books including the section in "The last battle" where they meet "the good calormene" the point is, that regardless of your religion, you can be a good and upright person whom god is pleased with.Its not about your religion its about who you are as as person. I was never talking about the people of these religions but the teachings themselves. Religions which do not Include an ultimate good are IMO dangerous. I dont think I need to explain that in the absense of "god" their can be no wrong and right.(its a theoretical impossibility, without an absolute to define things by, their is only personal choice) this is basic human nature(its how twelve step programs work) THE PEOPLE ARE NOT DANGEROUS OR BAD(the people of these religions are like the people of all others, good,bad,generous,sefish.)I was trying to Intelectualy discuss about the teachings themselves. And Im open to dicussion about things I believe(even criticism? hell yeah if my beliefs cant stand up to scrutiny, then really how strong are my convictions) but if we talk I would think that we would as likly as not agree on the important issues(respect , human dignity,equality and many others)
And Will... Mostly Im just hurt by your comments, they're so personal and irrelevant to the topic. I do not believe in "humans with bird wings" or anything remotly like it. Frankly thats just insulting. and for you to suggest that you have any understanding of the depth of my belief or the suffering that I have endured, is highly offensive. And furtermore that you use this to allow yourself to dismiss my opinions, is offputting to say the least. I will not be shut up by this. and I ask why you feel the need to say that kind of thing? (I was tempted at first to list details of my personal life for reasons of compairison with somone who claims to have gone thru so much more than me, but thought better of it as in the end the compairision of human suffering is pointless. no matter what a person has had happen to them their is always someone who has had it worse, but this does not invalidate the first persons suffering. One would not presume to tell a paraplegic to stop his whining because another man is a quadriplegic)
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Post by Maindric Games © on Nov 16, 2006 18:00:57 GMT -5
I do not know if I am just stupid, but is this a little off topic?
English --> Religion... How did that happen?
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Post by Neo Samurai on Nov 16, 2006 19:12:21 GMT -5
Read Smurf's essay.
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Post by The Smurf on Nov 16, 2006 19:36:03 GMT -5
damn... what did i do? ... i really didn't mean to bring up such a controversy... btw, i got an 88 on the essay... -the smurf
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Post by Neo Samurai on Nov 16, 2006 19:39:25 GMT -5
Great job, Smurf!
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 16, 2006 23:35:28 GMT -5
Ignorance of others religious beliefs equals not having your faith tested?(not agreeing with your assessment of me, just asking if thats what your trying to say) "ONE SPECIFIC SMALL TOWN" unfortunatly this is untrue. Being an american you may not be familiar with the sad saga of Bountiful British colombia. these and other smaller less reported on incidences have indeed taken place.
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 17, 2006 0:20:31 GMT -5
ok would people be happier if I were to say that no ones religion is illigitimate? If I was to say that 90 percent of what is done by governments, religions, clubs, and Individuals is good, non-selfish, completly un-misguided? does anyone here think things are going well in the world. honestly I am shocked by the status quo, everything is fine if the bear would just shut up about it, nature of this discussion. what has happened to "question everything"? Are things not in quite a bad state in the world right now? all I hear is, people telling me how Im wrong to say that their is trouble in various religions. Is this what the people in this discussion think? this is once again not an attack, it just suddenly occurred to me that this may be what people are trying to say (and alas, why we will never see eachother's view points) If I am seeing problems where you dont(And I see major problems in ALL religions) then please tell me. By the way, what I classify as a major problem is anything which is corrosive to human dignity and respect(gender based caste systems in christianity, islam, judeaism for) and any culture which does not condemn the things which destroy our society(murder, rape etc) not all cultures or even religions think the same way we do about these things.
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Post by vespuleth on Nov 17, 2006 1:35:18 GMT -5
make a new topic. I'm fine with the discussion. others arent. the board pretty much knows how to end a conversation we don't like. we just ignore it.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Nov 18, 2006 3:05:03 GMT -5
I think it's great to discuss your beliefs and to question the status quo. I think it's good to bring up controversial things that nobody wants to talk about. My main point was that this is not the place for it, because it will accomplish very little here. A post on an RPGM2 message board is not going to change anyone's religious beliefs, and it certainly will not lead to mass change. I wasn't trying to end a controversial topic, it's just that it's pretty easy to see when a topic has gone completely off course, and then even further, when continued discussion in said topic is serving only to anger people. That's all I really wanted to say.
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mrbear
RPG Making Novice
Dont underestimate the bear's fury, just because he's adorable.
Posts: 102
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Post by mrbear on Nov 20, 2006 15:00:08 GMT -5
Hey guys *(sorry to post so late on this, weekends are Biz-ee for me) But hey, yeah I geuss we'll just let it rest. I mean Ves, if you really wanna talk some more about this stuff we could start a new thread in the spam section.(we could call it "The very scary thread: enter at your own peril" to warn people who are uncomfortable with this kind of discussion) But maybe we'll just let it go instead. This isn't a concession speech of any kind, but I think we're pretty much done. Oh and hey Doan, I was'nt criticising you with my last post, I was unhappy with the mode of debate that was taking place in this thread (i.e. attack the person you disagree with instead of putting forth your own views) And I honestly started to wonder if people didn't so much disagree with my answers as they were made made uncomfortable by the questions. In closing I think I offended Ves and Will with my views, but the funny thing was, neither one of you really ended up saying what you thought of the things we were discussing.
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Post by vespuleth on Nov 23, 2006 11:58:48 GMT -5
i'm not offended, and I don't see what i didn't respond to. oh well.
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