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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 5, 2005 9:18:42 GMT -5
This idea came to me from some of vespuleth's various topics on the spam board, so I figured I'd start one of my own.
We all face moral, legal, and value challenging decisions. How we handle these decisions and what individual choices we make determine who we are as a society.
Here is the first question I send out to you all.
"Would you die for (to save) a complete stranger?"
You define the circumstance, the answer is completely yours. As for myself, I can say without doubt that I would die to save anyone, even some one I knew nothing about. That's just who I am.
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Post by KingSpoom on Apr 5, 2005 9:41:25 GMT -5
For a stranger? Only if a lot of people would know/learn of it. I think it takes a lot of people to appreciate such a feat.
TFR EDIT: So, you only would do it if it benifited society?
My Edit: It wouldn't have to benefit society (that would help), but society would have to know I did it... you know, fame.
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Post by vespuleth on Apr 6, 2005 1:36:27 GMT -5
i answer with a question:
would you live for one?
as a mathematician, i have come to respect the idea that, if something is true, its corollary is also true. many people say they will die for someone, but can only be seen living for themselves.
i think that the idea represented here is the cornerstone of christianity (the willingness to live for someone other than yourself).
edit: thanks for the nod, if thats indeed what this is. either way, i think its a good idea (which should be obvious, as i do it some)
TFR EDIT: Wow, great response ves, I like that kind of answer. I personally think giving your life for another would be the easier of the two to accomplish.
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Apr 6, 2005 13:38:32 GMT -5
People might say they would die for someone else, but rarely in the history of the world has anyone actually done so. There are many cases of people putting themselves in danger to save someone, but I'm sure they never though they might die doing it. It's only afterward that they realize the danger they were in.
Living for someone is much harder. It is not only the basis of some religions, it should be the basis of marriage as well. When you marry, you should devote your life to that person as they devote themself to you. Many marriages fail because one or both partners is not willing to give their lives to their spouse.
Would I die for someone? Probably not, although it might depend on the circumstance. For example, If I though I could survive I might risk my life to save someone else. If it was someone I really cared about, I might try to protect them at the risk of my own life. Until it actually happens, it's hard to say what you would do.
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Post by The Smurf on Apr 6, 2005 14:11:08 GMT -5
personally, i would not die for somebody who i knew nothing about. i would help in any way i could, but not die.
if it were someone i knew or cared about, depending on the circumstances, i might reconsider, but not a complete stranger. sorry if this seems blunt.
-the smurf
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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 6, 2005 19:29:53 GMT -5
Alright, here is a new question.
"Would you fight (in a war, as a protest, or in court) for something you believe in?"
I'd like to think that I would, and I know in the past I have demanded others respect my beliefs, but I don't know if that's the same thing.
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Post by KingSpoom on Apr 6, 2005 19:53:12 GMT -5
I'd gladly fight in a war if I could fight the way I wanted to. External pressures, standards, and expectations weigh down on my ability to succeed. I always do my best when it doesn't matter (although direct competition is also something I work at). I've always thought that I'd join the army once they invented giant mechs. I figure they would be more of a personal combat device than a tank and less cowardly than a plane.
Protest for something I believe in? Nah... Battle in court? Nah... Knowing I am making a difference is hard to count without... well, something to count.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Apr 6, 2005 21:33:39 GMT -5
For me, I would die fighting for something I believe in. I believe that fighting for something you don't believe in is pointless and if you are forced to fight for that, I would not care what the hell they'd do to me. I would stand by my beliefs and protect them, even if it comes at the cost of my own life. (Well, it all depends on how extreme the belief I'm fighting for is)
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Post by vespuleth on Apr 7, 2005 0:54:06 GMT -5
actually, will, i wouldnt want all the answers. what would be the exploration in that? i leave my perfected body and mind on the other side of eternity, and am now happy to discuss and consider the matter? i will not be so deluded to not believe in anything, however.
oh, and i would fight for what i believe in. i think i do. and alot of what i may not believe in. i constantly straddle the fence of questionable actions and reactions, and appropriate actions in response to the question of what i should or shouldnt do about what i do or dont believe in. (is that ambiguous enough for you?)
and to make this post just as challenging as the last (i hope):
if you arent willing to fight for something, how much do you believe in it? do you truly believe in it at all?
i quote CS Lewis:
You never know how much you really believe in something until its truth becomes a matter of life and death to you.
i extrapolate from this quote:
You never know how much you really believe something to be truth until you have to come to its defence as if it were.
so to me, if you are unwwilling to defend something, i question how much you believe in it.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Apr 7, 2005 15:39:46 GMT -5
Like I've said before. It depends on how extreme my belief is. If it's weak or average, then I probably would drop it. However, if I have a very strong faith in something, then I'd probably fight for it.
I fight through everyday, actually, trying to find answers to many personal questions (not physically fighting others. mentally fighting myself, searching through the deepest recesses of my soul). I feel that most of the answers to my questions are locked up somewhere deep within myself. I know that may make very little sense to people, but it's hard to explain, and if I do, it would be revealing too much about this personal problem.
I know this is one of those things I'd fight to death for.
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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 7, 2005 18:18:43 GMT -5
I am honestly surprized just how well this topic has spread. All the different input is refreshing. Ok, how about one that is more inclined to issues of today.
Since January 17, 1977 through April 5, 2005 the United States of America has executed 957 idividuals for their crimes. My question is this:
"Is the death penalty a justifiable punishment?"
I'm sure this feeds into whether you support the death penalty or not. Is it right in some instances and not in others? Do we as a people have the right to take another person's life as punishment for them doing just the same? Much has been said about this subject; what do you say?
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Post by KingSpoom on Apr 7, 2005 18:40:24 GMT -5
I don't think we execute enough! ... Really though, the only problem I have with executions is that they make them wait SOOOO LOOOONG to do it. I don't think that capital punishment deters crime at all, because it certainly wouldn't be on my mind... but I do think that a certain mentality is gained through experience with "the system". I think anyone that kills someone (for murder) should die, and for some of the other serious crimes. The US has the biggest crime rate, or the most criminals in jail or something... I think it's because we are too soft sometimes. Also, even though I don't make use of either, some drug and prostitution laws should be laxed... Government subsidized and taxed. Then maybe we will have enough money to dig this country out of its hole (grave?).
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Post by vespuleth on Apr 8, 2005 1:16:06 GMT -5
i think the question that determines/justifies is whether or not they have damaged society to their extent that their elimination is the only means to punish them, and the only means of protection for society.
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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 8, 2005 8:34:14 GMT -5
This issue is a big one for me. I am a big supporter of abolishing the death penalty. I beleive that it serves no real purpose, and that by killing killers it degrades us as a society and culture. But that's just me.
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Apr 8, 2005 18:34:48 GMT -5
Canada doesn't have a death penalty, so this isn't really an issue here. I think the biggest problem with a death penalty is what happens if you kill the wrong person? There have been several cases in Canada where people have be released after it was found that they were not guilty of the crime they were imprisoned for. These are innocent people that have had to live in prison for 15-20 years knowing that the real killer is still free. In the latest case a killer, who was final caught, admited to commiting a murder that someone else was being punished for (as well as several other unsolved murders).
It doesn't do any good to just punish the guilty, you need to stop crime at it's roots. Teach children how to deal with the trials of life and reduce poverity. If people were content with what they have, they wouldn't be trying to get more.
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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 9, 2005 9:00:05 GMT -5
That is very insightful DW. And as for wrongful convictions, not only is America plauged with these, but my state, Texas, has even executed individuals later proven to be innocent. I haven't found the evidence I need to support this, but I know it was in the news somewhere. I'll post it once I find it.
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Post by The Final Rune on Apr 12, 2005 10:11:39 GMT -5
It's been a couple of days, so I guess a new question is in order.
1.) What is your standpoint on abortion? 2.) Should the decision be up to the courts to decide or the parents? 3.) And what moral rammifications does abortion have on society has a whole?
A touchy subject for some, but a where do you stand question for sure.
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Post by KingSpoom on Apr 12, 2005 13:57:43 GMT -5
1: The way I value human life is... probably about the opposite from any normal view. Anytime I hear XX died, including XX women/children it amazes me. It's that semi-double standard at work again. I'd personally rather have a child dead than a contributing (working) adult. My rational is, if every child in the world died, we would just have to get to work repopulating... if every adult died... we'd be missing a lot of work experience. It's easier to replace a child than it is an adult. So, naturally, I'm all for abortions.
2: Parents choice all the way. I think that if the guy wants an abortion, but the woman doesn't, then the guy should be free from any obligation. Ultimately it is her choice, but she shouldn't have the freedom to screw over someone else. The courts have better things to do.
3: The moral issues just cloud up rational on society as a whole. They ignore the other issues like finance, quality of life, and overpopulation. The more logical the issue, the more important it should be. It doesn't matter if it's not right to abort, it matters that it's wrong to bring a human into existance without the assurance of a decent life.
Moral issues don't affect society until they come around full circle. I see this effect in online economies all the time. You get this cool item that you want to sell, but you are the first to do so. You set a price that may or may not seem reasonable to you. With a little work, your price can become a mandate making all future generations pay said price for said item. All this coming from someone who didn't know much about the item or it's value.
The same thing applies to moral issues. We live as others have lived. Throughout life you hear of rights and wrongs. Sometimes you disagree with them, but the majority you probably agree with. Now imagine hearing that abortion is murder and wrong. Even people against it begin to question themselves. It is this very questioning that leads to things like guilt. All because someone, who probably wasn't very educated in the matter, had to be there first. This becomes vivid when you hear of research that involves people devoid from society as a whole lacking certain biases.
... but, I'm not very vocal on my opinions. It wouldn't bother me to be with someone from the other side of this standpoint.
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Apr 12, 2005 15:00:47 GMT -5
1. Although I'm not in favor of abortion as a concept, I can understand that abortion is sometimes preferable over the alternative. There are too many unloved children in the world and, as sad is it is to say, sometimes it is more merciful to kill them off then let them grow up in an unloving or stressful enviroment.
2. It is ultimately the mothers choice. There is rarely a produceable father in most cases. Often it is a young woman, who was knocked up and finds out several months later that she's pregnant, that wants an abortion or to give the baby up for adoption. Later, when she has a chance to get her life together, she often regrets her decession but it was probabily the right choice to make at the time.
3. Abortions go on all the time, but I see no adverse effect on society. If society actually seased to value life, it could be bad. But as long as abortion is the last choice after all other options are made, society will survive.
I agree with King Spoom that there are far greater negative effects on society when children aren't raised right and become a menace to society. Better to worry about helping the children we have then trying to save the lives of children that aren't born yet.
That's my option anyway.
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Lord Bob
RPG Maker-in-Training
bLArG!
Posts: 18
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Post by Lord Bob on Jun 11, 2005 18:57:17 GMT -5
I hope you don't mind if I go back and answer all of them. Hell no! I'm nowhere near compassionate enough to sacrifice myself for someone I've never met, or never heard of. There was only one person I've ever known that I can say without a doubt that I would have layed down my life to protect, and she has not been a part of my life for a long time. Absolutely. It's why I have no problems protesting the War in Iraq, but I refuse to go fight it (even if drafted, which won't happen anyway). I'm a man of principle, and I refuse to compromise my values. Yes. I think the death penalty is very much underused. I live in Michigan, one of the few states not to have the death penalty, and there is talk of bringing it back. I really hope it happens. Of course, we need to fix the system. Execution should be used only if the convicted is absolutely, positively, 100% guilty of the crime. For crimes that have lengthy trials where there is a reasonable arguement that the accused might be innocent, the death penalty should be off the table. Furthermore, rapists and child molesters should be lumped in with murderers and killed. The process should be sped up a little as well. Execution shouldn't take 10 years to pull off. It should be legal only in extreme cases, such as when the mother's life is in danger, or in the case of rape. The courts. Otherwise, women kill their babies for whatever lame reason they want, like "I really want to sleep around like a dumb , but I really don't want a kid. Just kill it so I can go back to my sleazy life without any responsibilities." See my statement above. Personally, I see an unborn child as just that, a child. No, I'm not religious or anything, that's just the way I see it. Abortion isn't "pro choice," it's pro baby-killing. Abortion gives women a license to do whatever they want (not that I'm against sex, even of the pre-marital variety), then murder their own children. I think it's sick, and a perfect example of this society's fall into depravity.
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Post by The Final Rune on Jun 12, 2005 15:45:43 GMT -5
Wow, responses to old posts! That almost never happens.
Thanks for the answers LB.
I haven't posted any new questions for a while now, so I think I'll throw out a new one for everyone.
The media, politicians, parents, kids, and other adults are always gripping, yelling, protesting, or petitioning for or against violence in movies, TV, and video games.
There has been a lot of talk supporting and downing both sides. What's your stand point on this?
Through my own experience I have come to realize that games, movies, TV can have a negative impact on our understanding and visualization of reality, just check this post of mine (reply #19) concerning GTA to see why.
This issue has created a ton of discussion over the years and has yet to ever receive any true resolution. Its the talk against these medias that remind me of Elvis, The Beetles, and many other early artists. At almost any time or another some person or idea has been labeled as wrong, evil or sinful has over time become an accepted norm. Originally games were only for kids, but even that stereotype is slowly fading away.
So, talk, discuss, rant or rave away!
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Lord Bob
RPG Maker-in-Training
bLArG!
Posts: 18
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Post by Lord Bob on Jun 14, 2005 18:20:49 GMT -5
I think it's a load of crap really, and an obvious disguise for censorship. And censorship is never good.
I was raised around violent movies and even more violent games. In those days we could have GI Joe run around armed to the teeth with guns and explosives, or He-Man swinging an oversized sword at his enemies without overbearing mothers, politicians, and whiney liberal activists wailing "oh, the children!"
And you know what? I was also raised around guns. Lots of guns. So going by the (ignorant) claims of the uber-liberal parents groups, I should be in prison for the murder of about 10,000 people right now. But that's obviously not the case. Many of my friends were raised the same way, and we all came out good enough. So no, I think the whole violence in the media argument is a huge load of crap.
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Jun 15, 2005 17:14:21 GMT -5
One problem with this issue is that there is a small number of people that are effected by violence, and it is these people that the anti-violence people point to as "proof" that violent media
The fact is, violence has been around since man first walked the earth. There is an in-born need for violence in some people and no amount of sensor ship is going to help them. Others are made violent by the society they live in. It is a survival instinct. Unlike TV and Movies, violent video games actually help you release your violent tendencies in an healthy manner. Instead of beating up on someone, you can shoot a bunch or Zombies or destroy some aliens. It can be empowering to people who are physically weak as well.
However, people that are strong will prefer hands on violence. Sports can help these people but sometimes that's not enough. Everyone is different and you can't regulate one group of people without hurting everyone else. The correct solution is to make sure everyone has the ability to deal with their anger and frustrations in a healthy and productive way. But that is way to expensive and time consuming a solution and so people are looking for quick fixes.
It wasn't very long ago that violence in our society was blamed on books. Now it's video game's turn. In the future, holodecks will be blamed for all societies ills. People are just looking for something to blame.
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Post by Rodak on Jun 30, 2005 11:35:29 GMT -5
My Turn!
Quote: "Would you die for (to save) a complete stranger?"
No, but I would get my ass kicked. Once, about 20 years ago, I witnessed a guy standing in front of a woman he had cornered on a city block. He had his arms out keeping her from moving (she was against a wall) and he was yelling. I was going to pass this by, but he began hitting her. I was with a friend and said that we should do something. He did not want to get involved. I then told him to go for help, I could not watch this. She was now bleeding from her nose.
I thought my Aikido training would stand me in good stead, but after I got between them and told her to run, I blacked out.
I "woke up" three months later. Apparently I was hit in the head with a baseball bat from behind... he had a friend.
Apparently I was functioning about as normally as I ever do during that time, but it is lost. I still have no recollection of that period.
So, would i do it again?
I honestly do not know. But I know I have no regrets for having done what I did.
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Quote: "Would you fight (in a war, as a protest, or in court) for something you believe in?"
Protests and Court, sure. War scares me. I have no problem admitting cowardice in that regard. I know that I am not a coward (see above), I just feel that Politicians should have to fight their own wars (Like in my game, where the Fighter Class is called Politician).
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Quote: "Is the death penalty a justifiable punishment?"
I do not know. In cases where a confession is there, sure. When people claim innocence and there is any doubt, no.
And what about euthanasia? I have no problem with assisted suicide and even unassisted suicide. I find the laws against suicide to be laughable. What are they going to do about it?
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Quote: 1.) What is your standpoint on abortion?
Forget this second and third trimester controversies. I believe in Post-Natal abortion for the first 18 years. That'd keep kids behaving properly. That may sound like a joke, and it is in part, but part of me realizes that when some folks go wrong, there is no hope of bringing them back to being productive citizens at all.
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Quote: 2.) Should the decision be up to the courts to decide or the parents?
Yes.
But seriously, with adults the decision should be theirs. With minors it is complex. Some parents would react irrationally to these things and in such cases they should be deprived of the control. Otherwise the decision should be a joint one.
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Quote: 3.) And what moral ramifications does abortion have on society has a whole?
None whatsoever. Unless you are religious. The only arguments against abortion I have heard are steeped in religion. And since I feel religion in general does more harm than good, these arguments are to be dismissed.
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Quote:
The media, politicians, parents, kids, and other adults are always gripping, yelling, protesting, or petitioning for or against violence in movies, TV, and video games.
There has been a lot of talk supporting and downing both sides. What's your stand point on this?
I think it is true. My best friend has an 8 year old and when his mother bought him a Spiderman game he became very violent and started threatening to jump on people's shoulders and pound their head! This is an action in the game.
Needless to say, the game was taken away and the behaviour improved.
With other kids there was no problem.
It is all dependent on the individual.
My lunch break is over and I gotta go.
Peace.
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Post by The Smurf on Jun 30, 2005 21:48:38 GMT -5
I think it's a load of crap really, and an obvious disguise for censorship. And censorship is never good. i have to agree. tha games have labels, the movies have ratings, and the TV shows have parental controls. what the hell else more could one do besides banning them altogether?! personally, i think its the parent's fault if they let their kids be exposed to things they don't want them to see. these people want attention, that's all there is to it. -the smurf
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