How Should I Handle Game Overs?

[Neo Samurai]

Here's how I see it:

Option 1: Bring player back to title screen

Pros: If player saved at the right moment (like before facing a boss), he/she won't lose anything.

Player's characters will start back just as they were when you saved (The HP and MP you saved with).

Cons: The player must restart the game back to where he/she left off.

Player may have to go through a nerve-wrecking dungeon again.



Option 2: Default Game Over Routine

Pros: You'll keep all the items you had received after you saved.

No worrying about going back through said dungeon.

Cons: You lose a great deal of money

You have to heal/revive all your characters, possibly wasting even more money.

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I wish to see what anyone else would think (which one would you rather see in a game). I personally like the first one more. If you know when and where to save, this could be much better than the 2nd option.

If you have your own idea about a Game Over, then of course, select other.

[Deleted]

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These are two other topics relating to the same subject.

Here's my thoughts:

"I know from personal experience that most of my game overs I feel were not my fault, but rather something unlikely happened and screwed me just barely, or the creator didn't balance the game well, or a sudden no-save chance for a while hard-ass boss fight caught me off guard, etc.; and I hate losing progress in games and having to re-do the exact same thing, so a long, dramatic 'you've failed the game and the world's over' scene irritates me a ton most of the time. Hell, usually I get annoyed just if the game over-reset takes longer than it needs to. The way my game's planned and will be set-up there are save points before all the bosses, so what I was thinking I'd do is heal them up fully and send them to the location of their last save with everything they'd done already done, or something to that effect; basically, I'd just be quickening up the excessively long 'reset ps2, slowly load game, load my save on it, go through the same stuff in the game again' phase and letting them try their hand at the boss fight right away, or keep the money/skills they've learned from battling, or items from townspeople, etc. This way too, I won't be as afraid to make tough boss fights later in the game, because it'll take like 30 seconds to get right to the start of the fight again.

It's hard to say what'll work best, but I tend to prefer cutting out whatever'd be excessive for the player (*cough* plug for my custom menu *cough*)."

[Dungeon Warden]

One of your cons in option 2 isn't really a con because it can be easily fixed. The loose half your money deal is in the Wipeout recovery script and can be removed. Because of the bank, the loss isn't so bad since you can put all your money in the bank before going into a dungeon and take it out again when you are back in town.

You could make the recovery script cause the player to take a different punishment than the lost of half the party's money if you wanted to.

I like the second option since if the party is of such a low level that they get killed, then they need the extra experience and levels so they can try again. Putting saves near an area where the player can die (like bosses) also removes the need to restart the game since the player will not have gained much between the time they saved and the time they die.

Using option one just forces the player to level up until they are so powerful they can't die so they can avoid having to reload the game. Why annoy the player like that? It is much more fun if death is only a minor annoyance.

[Tinbok]

You could make an alternate dimension area that's kinda like a maze. The character will fight different enemies based on your level and when you get through the maze you will appear at an area you saved at. You could pick up unique items along the way along with some healing items. You will not lose anything if you make it through the maze. Maybe something along those lines would be unique. I wanted to use this in my last game, but I started the one I'm currently working on now. It doesn't really make sense to do something like this in my game.

BTW: This isn't really a game over suggestion.

[Neo Samurai]

I've had a complete change of heart on the game overs.

I like option 2 better. I've decided to try out the Bank in my game (but have it modified).

In my game, instead of losing half your money, you'll probably lose 25%, which is much less extreme. And as for the characters, I'll probably heal them all up again (However, I'd probably have some sort of healing source near the save point).

[Deleted]

The healing source shouldn't be infinite though.

[Neo Samurai]

I know.

[Doan the Nado]

I am a fan of the hardcore, classic "bring player back to title screen" method. It may make for a difficult game, but it is one of the things that I loved about the original FF1: you can't save in a dungeon, and if you go in too weak, you will have to start it again. This makes for real consequences for your missteps, as I thought the fighting on that game was pretty well balanced (especially for being one of the first RPGs) and I never really felt like I died unfairly (except for the stupid stone effect of the coctrices, but once you bring some Soft potions, it works out okay).

The key to making this method work is to control where the player can save. You can't allow them to save everywhere because they could possibly ruin their game progress forever. On the other hand, you don't want to put Save/Restoration points everywhere, or else the game will be too easy.

I don't like Option 2 because it doesn't really make that much sense to me. How does dying take away money? I know this is a fairly common practice, but I just don't think it makes sense in the context of gaming.

One other idea that I think works well is what they do in Everquest when you die. First of all, you lose a significant amount of experience, about 25% of a full level (once you get up to high levels, it can take a lot of battles to gain levels). Secondly, everything that was on your body when you died is no longer there. You are returned to the last place that your soul was "bound" (usually in a town, unless you had a magic player bind you somewhere else), and you have to go back to your corpse to get your equipment, items, and on-hand money back, or else lose it all.

This last method worked well in EQ because it'as a MMORPG (massively multiplayer online RPG). There were always people around who could help you get your corpse, although they would often charge for it. Necromancers could summon corpses (bring them to their location, i.e. your corpse is buried in a dangerous spot in a dungeon, just bring it to the entrance so you can retrieve your stuff) if they were on the same map as the corpse, and Clerics could resurrect you by casting a resurrection spell on your corpse. This would give a lot of your experience back and bring you back to the place where you died, with your equipment and everything on. It may be hard to work such an idea into a single player RPG, unless you have multiple parties that you can switch control between.

[Dungeon Warden]

Yes, FFI was well balanced because there were a lot of healing items in chests and on enemies so you were rarely in danger of dying. Many of the enemy could be killed the first round (thanks to area effect spells and low HP or weak (2X damage) enemies) once you gained a few levels. Status effects often failed and were easily cured with items or magic. By the time you reached the boss you were often equiped with useful weapons and armor and had gained enough levels to make the battle relatively easy.

One tactic I used was going into the dungeon, exploring everywhere, and opening every treasure chest along the way. Once I found the boss, I would leave, use a cabin to save and heal up, then go back in to fight the boss. This saved me from losing everything if I died and made my party strong enough to defeat the boss.

The point is, how you design game overs will depend on the whole game design. If the party can find items to make survival easy and dying is rare, then kicking the player out of the game when they make stupid mistakes (like fighting the boss when they know they're not ready) is okay. The player will be more careful the next time. This keeps people from rushing through the game. At the same time, players shouldn't be forced to level up to survive. Exploration and puzzle solving should be enough to get the player through without fighting a lot of random battles beyond what you fight while exploring.

Basically, you need to play test the game and make sure it is easy to get through without too much trouble, but not so easy the player can just rush through and skip a lot of stuff.

You can also make the game very hard but allow saves everywhere so the player can redo a battle if things go badly. It is more about the style of play you want to promote than it is about one method being better than another. The main point is to not make things too hard for the player. If the player gets fustrated because his party keeps dying and he has to play a dungeon level over and over again, then he will more likely quit then continue playing your game. I would error on the side of too easy more than to hard. Some people might not like it being too easy but they will probably play though the game to the end anyway. The reverse is not true.

[Jugem]

I remember playing the first Dragon Warrior back in the day. Whenever I was about to die, I'd reset the system so I wouldn't lose any money. As you can tell, I'm also not a big fan of losing money when you die. What's funny is I'm trying to remember how some of my favourite rpgs handled game overs, and I can't for the life of me remember. As long as you don't lose too much progress, I think any method you choose would suffice.

[Dungeon Warden]

Many RPGs force you to reload your last saved game when you die. It was very bad if you didn't save in a while. I think one of the reasons I liked FFIV's gameplay over FFI is that you were never far from a save point and most dungeons were short. That and the great story.

[Dark Knight Of Lodis]

Personally, I like to have dying in my games realistic. If you die in battle, you don't lose money, you don't lose experience, you die.

The only way to continue is to 'go back in time' before it happened to the last save point.

So basically, I agree with the Title Screen approach, or even loading the game directly to standing on the savepoint.

[The Final Rune]

If losing a battle results in death then I think the game should end and you would simply have to reload.

If the losing status is called K.O. instead of dead, then there should be a multiple plot divergence depending on whether you won or lost.

If you want a retry option, make the player forfit money or EXP in exchange to try again (like paying death for a second chance) or make them just start again from the last save point.

Just some ideas.

[Dungeon Warden]

One unique idea that I haven't seen in any other game is the death screen in Phantasie I (an old Apple 2e/Commodor 64 game). When you died, you went to the after life and were judged. Depending on how well you played the game up to that point, you could come back fully healed, as a zombie or skeleton, or not at all. Some of the more powerful (and rare) characters had a hard time coming back, but the human characters were nearly always brought back to life, unless you died several times in a row.

I don't know how useful this idea is, but it was an interesting way to deal with death. It also means that you can control if the party comes back or not instead of making it one way (load last same game) or the other (lose gold and start at last save point).

[Lord Bob]

I'm with Doan, Lodis, and Final Rune on this one. Dying is much more dramatic if it means final death rather than "oops, you lost. That'll be 25,000g please."

It really depends on the nature and mood of the game, (not to mention mechanics and balance). In my game, there are no kings that can send out men to find your broken body, no priests to revive you, or no gods willing to give you a second chance (well, there's the ghost of a priest, but he's only there as a tutorial). Being revived at any cost simply wouldn't make any sense setting wise.

Also, my game is much darker than most others I've seen so far. A simple "for shame, you lost! try again" would kill the mood. Death is death in my game, and should be treated as a tragic end.

On the other hand, a lighter themed game like Dragon Warrior can get away with the temporary death thing. if your game is closer to this than mine is, the insta-revive, cash penalty thing isn't too bad.

Another thing to consider is how you handle the save system. If you have a save anywhere feature, it's best to do an insta-revive at a safe location, incase the player does something stupid. Even if you have limited save points in dungeons, it's possible to get screwed, so a revive point in a safe location is the best way to go. If the only save points are in places where the player can't get stuck, or if save points fully heal the characters, a title screen system works well.

I use a save point system that fully heals the characters, then brings up the save menu, then disappears (barring unlimited healing). This way, characters in a tight spot are not permanently screwed, and I can still use my final death game over method.

[Dungeon Warden]

Load Bob, I understand what you're saying makes sense in theory, but try dying a few times when you keep getting kicked out and you'll understand how frustrating it is.

A better option would be to save the party's experience and money in variables when they enter a dungeon and then warp them back to the entrance with these values reset when they die. You could also use your treasure flags to determine what treasures have been found in the dungeon and remove these from the party along with reseting the flags. Any items the party used would be gone for good (unless you want to go to the trouble of remembering that items the party had and restoring them as well but that's just too much work).

Getting kicked out of the game is only a problem if it happens a lot. If the game isn't too hard, it's not so annoying; but if the same boss keeps killing you over and over again, it's easier to quit than go to all the brother of loading in the game and trying again - especially if you have to get to the boss all over again as well.

Before you reply, try making a tough dungeon that kicks you out every time you die and learn how annoying it is for yourself. You don't know how much of a pain it is unless you experience it for yourself.

[Lord Bob]

Load Bob,

Lord, not Load.

I understand what you're saying makes sense in theory, but try dying a few times when you keep getting kicked out and you'll understand how frustrating it is.

I'm no novice when it comes to games, Warden. I'm pretty sure I'm well versed enough in losing, and the various methods different games use to handle death in game.

As I said, it depends on the game. Certain methods work better depending on game structure and genre. The method I described works best for my game, so I recommended it as such.

A better option would be to save the party's experience and money in variables when they enter a dungeon...

For some games, that might work well. Not for mine.

Getting kicked out of the game is only a problem if it happens a lot.

Agreed, but if you are dying over and over again in the same area, it's safe to say the player is doing something wrong, not the developer. Leave the area, level up, equip better stuff (if possble) and come back. You obviously are not strong enough for that section of the game yet.

it's easier to quit than go to all the brother of loading in the game and trying again - especially if you have to get to the boss all over again as well.

Which depends on how the game was designed.

Before you reply, try making a tough dungeon that kicks you out every time you die and learn how annoying it is for yourself. You don't know how much of a pain it is unless you experience it for yourself.

Because I've obviously never done this before, and I know nothing about game balance. *rolls eyes*

[Deleted]

It is often times the developer's fault when something is too hard...

[Rodak]

I believe that a gaming experience should be fun. More fun than challenging, so I say "let 'em save anywhere" (this feature can cause trouble, as Doan pointed out, but with so many save slots I doubt that anyone not using a full memory card would have to restart because of allowing this). That way if they die they are never too far from their last save (provided they made wise use of the feature). The hardest part of these games should have nothing to do with battles. I think the hard parts should involve puzzles or something conceptual. Hard and long, drawn out battles make me lose interest in a game.

As for the dramatic realism of a death meaning "game over" vs the silly fantasy of death meaning "pay the piper" I will always go with silly fantasy. My game playing motto is "Keep your Realism out of my Fantasy!"

I voted other and will suggest a "Quit/Retry" option after death, with retry bringing no serious penalties. As long as it is not the RPGM2 screen!

If you are worried about Save Anywhere abuse with a revive from death system, count the revivals on a single map (reset count if map changes). Then if they die too many times you can warp them someplace safe.

[Dungeon Warden]

I agree with Rodak, the game should be fun not frustrating.

If the game is balanced so the the party shouldn't die unless the player does something stupid, why should there be a penalty for dying beyond going back to the last save point? It's not like the player doesn't already know they did something wrong.

If the game is designed so that the player needs to play smart to survive and dying is common, why annoy the player further by kicking them out? It's like your saying you're not good enough for my game. Go away.

Of course everyone is different and while some people might quit playing after being kicked out a few times, others might take it as a challenge and keep playing no matter how annoying it is.

It would be nice if you could just reload the last save the way professional games do. I still think there has got to be a better way to do it then just kicking the player out of the game.

[The Smurf]

i didn't do this in genesis chronicle, but kuromei chronicle uses save crystals instead of saving in the church. examine the crystal and you get the save window. i try to make it very difficult for the player to die, even though some of my bosses are really hard (but maybe not). for instance, you get the heal tech right from the beginning, and you have to try to run out of healing items. save points are almost everywhere, sometimes up to 3 times in a single dungeon. but anyway, i use the default game over system, which sends you back to your last saved point. i agree with DW and Rodak; you shouldn't be punished for messing up, you should get another chance. and another and another if need be.


-the smurf