Stupid-ass Cross-site Bickering

[Doan the Nado]

Anyone who was around this weekend (which did not include me, unfortunately) saw what happened between the Pavilion and our community. It did not involve too many members here, but I feel like something needs to be said anyways.

First of all, I thought the comic was funny. The damaged/damn aged thing was pretty clever, and saying that about a coworker (who has a sense of humor) is funny. How much of an insider do you have to be to get such a joke? And if you've ever been called into work on your day off, the second one makes sense as well. The art is not top-notch, but I don't think that was the intention. I've never seen such an effect used in a comic, and I rather liked it. It reminded me of that show on Adult Swim, "Tom Goes to the Mayor". Just because I liked it doesn't mean everyone should, but it really surprises me that out of about 25 comments that it got at the Pav, only 2 or 3 people even tried to be reasonable.

As an "outsider" reading that thread, I have no desire to go to the Pavilion whatsoever. I have never had anything against the Pavilion, but seeing someone post a creative work only to have it thoroughly crushed is quite sad. If I was new to the whole RPGM thing and was thinking about joining a community, I'd be quite hesitant to visit one that seems to take pleasure in demeaning someone's artwork. There are certainly more tactful ways to criticize what he posted (one of them being pressing the "Back" button on your browser and moving on).

I don't think that Valk handled the situation properly. He fed the flamewar instead of putting it out as an administrator should. He posted private information that is not meant for the public domain; there is a reason that only admins can see IP addresses... they are expected to respect their power and not abuse it. Most of all, what he said here really pissed me off:

Every little thing has to come to a ****ing flame war with those people! i'm sick of it! you say we're such a bad community, why? because we unite against idiot flamers like last night? because people hold a grudge against you for all the stupid **** you've done here in the past? some of doan's members are the most venomous people I've ever seen in the community, and it is people like THEM that are the biggest problem with the community, NOT THE PAVILION. The pavilion has kept the RPGM community alive and kicking the past few years. without the pavilion, you wouldnt even HAVE your precious RPG Maker 2.

It distinctly has the tone of someone who thinks himself better than someone else. So we should bow to you because you helped bring RPGM2 here? Last I checked, the reason I created this place was that no one there seemed to care too much about RPGM2. The very members that he claims are the biggest problem are some of the people doing the most original work with RPGM2. Nash has done some crazy scripting feats that no one previously thought possible, Damien has produced a large amount of high quality VFX, and Will always plays others' games and offers constructive criticism on them. Funny how creating a good environment brings out the best in people, isn't it?


Getting back to the point, I don't want to see any more of this stuff here. As far as I'm concerned, the Pav and Domain exist in totally different worlds. I created this place because I didn't particularly like it there; I didn't like that the people in power let flame wars get out of hand, that creative work is discouraged, and that some people have an "I'm better than you" attitude. I don't want to have to hear about it. If you don't like it, don't go, or go at your own risk. If you have a problem with Valk, you can talk about it there, or vent to someone in a chat, but I don't want our board marred with useless bickering that accomplishes nothing. This message board is about supporting and encouraging people, sharing ideas, and building cool stuff. If what you are posting doesn't do any of those, then don't post it.

Enough. We now have a new censored word.

[Bigfoot]

Yes Doan, I definitly agree with you for the most part. I too have had some problems with the in the past, but I didn't think it was right for Drew to go there and bring animousity back to our site. I can't believe Valk said that, I am actually offended by it. I don't even remember reading that, I thought he said that he was going to refrain from saying where the member came from... Very disapointing indeed. His smugness in what you quoted actually is making me consider staying away from that site.

And its like I said before, I am afraid that the actually chases away new users to the RPGM series.

And another thing, I still stand by William, I do think that he brought it a little far, but after taking that crap from Ryner and Valk not giving a is enough to piss anyone off.

After seeing Valk making ban warnings and making helpful changes to the rep system, my opinion on him changed. Now it has changed again for the worse. Him sitting on his little throne denouncing us is ludicrous. I think this site is most welcome to new users than any site in the community.

admin said:

Funny how creating a good environment brings out the best in people, isn't it?

Nothing is more true than that. Its funny on how every member here gets along. Not the case there.

[nerussentia]

What exactly happened? An links to this criticism I hear about from the start to the end?

[Doan the Nado]

Here's the link to what Valk said. In the event that it gets changed, I have taken a screenshot and I believe that Reality will be uploading it for us to see.

Nash's Pav Thread (if it stays around)

Specifically, Valk's post

Screenshot of Valk's post

As for what happened, Nash posted some pics of a comic he made here and at the ilion. Most of the people here liked it. At the ilion, Valk said that it was retarded and then nearly every other comment was someone saying how terrible it was. No constructive criticism whatsoever. Nash remarked here that people at the were being pretty mean, and then various people showed their surprise at the response. We are going to move the topic back in the public domain so that everyone can see what was said, and that it is not as bad as some people have implied. What was said in Nash's original post here.

Edit: I had to remove the whole censored word. It was causing too many problems, but I think it was funny while it lasted ;D

[kennyken]

wow, I was totally oblivious to this whole situation. They were so harsh to Nash, it was so mean spirited, like sharks driven into a frenzy by the scent of blood. I had a bad pav exp too, but there are some decent people there. I haven't really gone there since I've joined this site though. I hope this stupid ___ goes no further.

[Neo Samurai]

*sigh*

Like Bigfoot said, it seems really ironic to me that a community that cares and supports for each other could be called "venomous" by a community that puts itself on a pedestal and expects others to bow to them.

Also, I'm sorry that I helped to keep Nash's topic as a "pavilion bash" topic. Just trying to put my opinion in.

But your comics were really good, Nash.

[Doan the Nado]

link05 said:

...by a community that puts itself on a pedestal and expects others to bow to them...

Let's not get too out of hand, here. While that statement may apply to certain comments made, I'm not sure that it applies to the whole community (although in some regards, I guess the leader is the community representative).

At any rate, I do not want to have to lock this topic, so let's try to avoid doing anything that could be remotely considered "flaming".

Thanks

[Valkysas]

My response in nash's thread had some pretty harsh words. but they werent aimed aimed at this entire community like some people think. they were aimed only at the people flaming the pavilion in his topic about the comics over here, just because no one liked his comics over there. Everyone at the pavilion has a grudge against nash. why? he's started flame wars, he's condemned people to hell, and he's just generally been an . so I'm not surprised at all when they treat him like crap right back. BUT I still respect nash. I have no respect for damien and never will after the way he behaved over at the pavilion the other night. you didnt see the worst stuff, he edited it out (likely out of fear), or my staff did because it was too harsh to stay on the forum. Nash never went as far as Damien did. Regardless of his accomplishments, any respect I ever had for Damien is gone, and will never return.

I've never tolerated any flaming of this site over there. well, I've actually never had to, since our members would never do that. flaming the pavilion is a regular occurance over here, especially from this forum's staff.

its disgusting.

Did I post personal information during the little troll incident? I sure did! I'd do it again too. he wants to come and insult me, my site, my friends, I'll retaliate in whatever way I feel appropriate. he showed me and my people a complete lack of respect, I'll show him the same. Its like this for everyone that comes just to start trouble at the pavilion. I've done it before, I'll do it again in the future.

Oh, by the way, I gave nash's comic constructive criticism.

You've told people not to flame the pavilion on this forum before doan, right? during the whole WilliamKirk mess. They didnt listen. You have the same rule-ignoring problem I have over at the pavilion. especially since a member of your staff decided to come and flame the hell of us the other night. You are responsible for your staff's behavior. No matter where they go in this community, they represent your site. Whether or not you want it to be true, it is.

I've been pretty badly behaved this past week. I apologize for that. It has been impossible for me to think ahead and make intelligent posts dealing with flamers and all that crap like I know I should, like Doan said I should have. Anyone who has seen a certain sticky topic in the free forum knows why. for those that don't feel like checking, I found out last week that my absolute best friend died, likely from cancer, but possibly by his own hand as well. rational thinking right now is NOT something I can do at this time. Hell, it took me nine edits to get this reply the way I wanted it.

I apologize deeply if people thought my comments in nash's imaginari topic were addressed to everyone here. It was only addressed to the people in the topic I linked to. no one else. too many people I respect, that I'd like to consider friends are over here. I would never do that. and I'm extremely sorry if you thought I would, or did.

[Neo Samurai]

I did get a little out of hand with some things I said in Nash's topic, but besides that, there were still some truths in what I was saying. And I'm sure that there are some pretty decent people over at the pavilion.

This really has gotten out of hand, though. Let's just forget this all ever happened and agree to not become mortal enemies. Maybe we don't exactly see eye to eye, but it's best to stop this before it gets any worse.

[Valkysas]

I dont WANT to become mortal enemies.

This did get out of hand. I'd like to put this behind us.

Most of the people at the pavilion are above and beyond decent, the same goes for the people here.

Nash has caused countless problems at the pavilion, and I'm sure that is the reason so many people harshly responded to his store comics.

I feel I behaved very well with damien's attack on the pavilion. I could have made things much worse. if he, or other people don't like what I did, then I'd just like to remind people that when someone attacks my site, I will do whatever I feel like in response, as long as it is within legal limits. whois searches are within legal limits.

The only thing I regret about this entire situation is not making it clearer who I was addressing in my final reply to nash's topic over at the pavilion.

as for why nash hasnt been banned, it does no good. he's been banned before for flaming and trolling, and he's come back with new IP addresses and new accounts. we CAN NOT get rid of him no matter how hard we try. we ban him for bad behavior, he comes right back. people got so fed up with him that they insulted the hell out of his comic, and he earned every bit of it. I'm sure most people here were not aware of that when they jumped on the pavilion hate-wagon.

[Neo Samurai]

All right. That's good.

Thank you.

[BloodKnight]

I'd like to put this behind somewhere as well.

We KNOW who's at fault here(hint: it has NOTHING to do with site admins), steps should be taken to correct the problem, not put the blame on people who don't deserve it. I know what happened at the Pavilion, and I think it was harsh, but then again the culprits STARTED the whole mess. It's like playing with fire, you're gonna get burned if you become reckless(which is why I don't use butane lighters). The instigator(s) just played with fire in the wrong place.

The Pavilion and Domain SHOULDN'T have any bad blood, but it does because of a few stray users over some BS. The buds should be nipped. You know what that means Doan.

[NASH7777]

OK saving my spot.

Valk it seems to me that you exaggerate some. I had one topic on religion and merely posted bible supported factual info that certain lifestyles lead to hell, according to the bible and that that meant that some members were gunna go there if Hell actually exists. In all cases I was merely defending a side or myself. And this crap about making all these accounts and impossible to ban me is also over the top lying. I made one other account at school because I wanted people to stop being asses just because of my screen name and judge actually on my content. For making another account you banned me which is fine. That's why a while ago I had you change my name to "-" cause I wanted to see how if people didn't see me as neonash they would respond differently, which was shortlived because someone identified who I was right away.

But I have to go to work in a bit so I'm just saving my post spot for more later on the matter...

[Doan the Nado]

I disagree with a lot of what Valk has said here. It seems everyone is quick to put this all behind us and "patch things up", but that's not going to help anything.

I will do whatever I feel like in response, as long as it is within legal limits. whois searches are within legal limits.

The problem is that what you did was not within legal limits. When someone signs up for a site like the Pavilion, they are entering into a contract in that they are releasing their private information to you on the condition that you treat it responsibly. Ves and I could find no privacy disclosure that stated otherwise, that said that any private information could potentially be distributed to the world. Whois is in the public domain, that is true, but you have to have the IP address. The IP address is private, and Reality would have every right to pursue the issue in civil court if he wished to do so.

I feel I behaved very well with damien's attack on the pavilion. I could have made things much worse.

How much worse could you have made it? Six pages of flames and pointless drivel, posting private information is "behaved very well"? I would like to know what bad behavior would be. Seriously, what do you deem to be bad behavior? It is true that Damien should not have done that, and that he was in the wrong. But when the person in charge of maintaining order fails to fulfill his duties, he is at just as much fault as the person who started the whole thing. You could have easily said, "This thread is garbage. Locked." End of story. That would be handling it well.

You've told people not to flame the pavilion on this forum before doan, right? during the whole WilliamKirk mess. They didnt listen. You have the same rule-ignoring problem I have over at the pavilion. especially since a member of your staff decided to come and flame the hell of us the other night.

We do not have the same "rule-ignoring problem". We deal with infractions when they occur, promptly, before they get out of hand. No one here complains of being treated unequally or of feeling like the Domain is elitist. In fact "Don't say anything to upset the Pavilion" is certainly not one of our rules. As for a staff member "flaming the hell out of us", who are you talking about? If you consider Damien a staff member because he moderates his forum, then you are mistaken. The only "staff" here is Ves, Nash, and I, and Nash is not an admin, but merely a moderator, mainly because of past issues with the Pavilion.

What happened in Nash's post at your message board was wrong, regardless of what he has done in the past. Reality (Damien) has done some things here that he is not proud of, but we put that behind us and judge him based on his present actions. What happened in Damien's post was wrong as well. Both of those things happened on your board, where you were supposed to be in control. Over here, a few comments were made about the Pavilion based on past issues that members had with them, and based largely on the post Nash made over there. Stating opinions that have some ground in reality is not flaming, and for you to call us flamers is simply ridiculous. Not to mention that Ves warned that it was getting off topic and then closed it/moved it altogether. Where do you think that our staff went wrong in the handling of the situation?

flaming the pavilion is a regular occurance over here, especially from this forum's staff

Where do you get that from? Do you visit here regularly and see topics against the Pavilion all the time? We can only control what goes on here, and last I saw, we were talking about poop and cutscenes, not your "precious" Pavilion (as you so kindly referred to RPGM2 in regards to us).

its disgusting

Nothing about this site is disgusting (except maybe for all the poop, and Bigfoot's cutscenes). I believe that what we have here is basically a community that does the right thing. We encourage each other, offer constructive criticism when appropriate, give people second chances, and even work together on things. We have never had someone leave this board because they felt threatened or unwelcome. I have never had to go defend my actions on another message board. We have only had to ban one member, ever, and he got the message and he's now a wonderful community member. We are doing something right, and if that makes you jealous, I am sorry.

Switching to other replies:

hint: it has NOTHING to do with site admins

It has everything to do with site admins. We did our jobs here, took care of the problems quickly, and there was no issue whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. Everything that got out of hand happened at the Pavilion, where certain admins were well aware of what was going on and did nothing to stop it.

The Pavilion and Domain SHOULDN'T have any bad blood, but it does because of a few stray users over some BS. The buds should be nipped. You know what that means Doan.

I know what you mean, and I don't like it. I will judge people based on how they treat me, and the kind of behavior that I observe. I like this comparison: let's say that I am a teacher, and I have my own little classroom. Everyone in my class is happy, they work together to solve hard problems, they almost always get along, there don't really seem to be any bad apples. Those students leave the class and go to another, and there they are branded as degenerate members who do nothing but cause trouble. Is that my fault? Is that even their fault? If someone can thrive in a given environment and then somewhere else encourages behavior to the contrary, that seems to me to be a deficiency in the "somewhere else". The Pavilion and the Domain have always had "bad blood" ever since Will was telling people that they should come here, ever since I created this place because I didn't like my experience at the Pavilion. I'm not saying that was my goal, but it's almost a necessary end. And frankly, I don't care. I've come to be comfortable here, and to really enjoy it, and I'm not out to ensure that the Pavilion is a good place to be. I'm just here to see that the Domain is a good place to be. If you can't handle that, I'm sorry, but I cannot be held responsible for another board's lack of control. I cannot be expected to police my members when they are not under my watch.

Maybe no one flames us because they have no reason to. Did you ever think of that, Valk?

[Doan the Nado]

neonash7777 said:

Valk your such a flip-floppy exaggerator.

Nash, please don't resort to name-calling. It's fine to defend yourself and present your side, but saying things like this will only incite anger and prove nothing. If you don't remove it by the end of the night, I will.

[realitybites]

Actually I was talking to my uncle who is an attorney, and he said I could have a case in this matter,BUT if you Valk let this rest, no fines will be charged, I also told him I did start flames over there, but he said nonetheless, what you did by showing my IP addy was wrong, what if someone wanted to give me a virus through my IP Address, and publicly showing my email? In my opinon thats not what a administrator who and I quote "you would'nt have your PRECIous RPGM2 if it weren't for us!" Ummm sorry to say Valk, Its been in japan alot longer than the English Version of RPGM2, hell there on 5 right now! So saying that is completley fallace of you. I just wanted to say yes I did start flames at the pavilion, but I DID IT AS MY OWN SELF, not representing any side. Now please can't we end this?

[Valkysas]

I'm not discussing this here anymore. I said my final words on the pavilion front page.

I dont care what you think of this incident anymore. you're so quick to place all the blame on the pavilion with this, and refuse to see how your community has done anything wrong.

as for what I did to damien, I dont have to defend myself. he attacked us. then all bets were off.

I had hoped this would come to a peaceful conclusion, but I see now it won't, and I just don't care. I'm leaving this situation behind me. if you want to keep it up, thats fine. but I won't be back.

as for what I said about RPGM2, you wouldnt have it without the pavilion. agetec and enterbrain based RPGM2 on the pavilion's requests and comments all through the development cycle. anyone who was at the pavilion in 2000-2001 knows that.

EDIT: and poking fun of me with user titles. cute.

[Doan the Nado]

Actually, that is the default 3-star user title, an inside joke because so many newbs ask that question. I have not yet read what you posted at the Pavilion, but I will later. If you point out where exactly we, meaning the Domain site administrators, went wrong in this matter, I will be happy to share fault. I fail to see that, and so I refuse to claim that both sides were equally wrong. And so what if the Domain wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the Pav? Does that matter now, when we are both here? The Jews wouldn't have their own country if Hitler hadn't done what he did... should they be grateful? I'm not calling you Hitler, I'm just saying that the fact that us being here is a result of the Pavilion existing in no way makes me feel obligated to appease you.

[BloodKnight]

Reality, I don't know whether or not you have a case in anything, not caring. But, why waste your time(or IMO, even considering it)?

Anyway, I pray for the proper fences to be mended, I hate having to be a member of feuding communities.

[Neo Samurai]

Yeah. This has gotten really out of hand.

[NASH7777]

It seems to me Valk is trying to blame the site. I don't know how. Because tons of people have ran into problems with moderation and what not. Many of them non-Doanians and so Will left and asked for his games to be removed and left for good, I got in an ethical debate with some members at your forum where they all just teamed up on me what some of them said and did were just as bad if not worse than what I said and nothing happened to them, and Damien flames your board. Other than damien flaming your board I don't see much issue then your members teaming up and being biased and unrespectful to other members, not that I wasn't disrespectful too in the convo, but I love debate ;-)

I have a semi-resolution. Not a complete we drop it, but just a parting in a sense. Those who want to be at both do so. I'll rid of my account there. Please no one go there and flame or w-e regardless of your feelings toward there site. I have my own feelings about how things are over there, I'll keep them to myself unless prompted otherwise. Doanians stay doanians and just ignore the pav if ya don't like it there. And finally let's drop this subject cause I've had a really good day and I don't wanna ruin it. And the rest of you shold have a good day and not get bent outta shape over such trivial matters as online message boards. I mean honestly sometimes things are too serious and other times not-serious enough on certain matters. I tried pointing out that ppl were too serious about things at times at the pav and eventually people loaded a purposely controversal idea about choice, getting angry, proving my point, then somehow getting me banned for it for calling someone monkey-brained or something...

[thetruecoolness]

Sounds like a plan Nash, so let's close this topic, as I think everyone has had their fill and say on this situation, and if not they are welcome to talk to the admins or members of either site on messaging about it. The topic over there on this is closed so I think we should follow suit.

[Doan the Nado]

This works, but it doesn't really solve anything. I guess for me to finally get some sleep (it's been over 32 hours now), it's probably in my best interest to close it as well. I still hope that people actually come here and see for themselves "what happened" here, because I feel like it was blown a bit out of proportion. Ves and I did our best to control the part that we had control over, and I just don't want anyone to have a negative opinion about the board as a whole based on an uninformed opinion.

[vespuleth]

Forgive my late post; I just don't want anyone to think that I'm being sheepish on the matter. I havent said anything because I feel its all been said. Doan and I discussed the matter, and TTC and I discussed the matter, and I feel that Doan has properly expressed what I think occurred. I know everyone is in a hurry to put this all behind us; nobody likes conflict. I don't mind it so much, even think its healthy (whose not afraid of a relationship where you never fight?). I think a better resolution needs to be come to than 'lets just drop it.' I think Doan does as well. I could be wrong.(As a tangent, I'd compare the 'lets drop it' approach to the Isreali/Lebanese cease fire: a poor solution that is guaranteed not to last long). However, As Doan has said all that I think I would, I have nothing further to say.

Shantih,
ves