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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 9:20:13 GMT -5
The second this goes where I don't want it to, I'm locking it. I don't want any unqualified statements posted here (i.e. "They are such asses"). Anything you say that could be regarded as inflammatory better be back up by some evidence.
Important Note: William says a lot of things in this thread that the members of the Domain do not agree with. I would normally delete these types of post, or edit them, but in this case, I think the best solution may be to leave them. Please do not let what he says here reflect on your opinion of the Domain. Thank you.
That said, the purpose of this post is not to criticize the Pavilion or Valk (I think I've done the latter quite thoroughly, at least in regards to this incident). I would like to reopen this debate about our relationship with the Pavilion, because I don't think we discussed it as thoroughly as we should have. Now that everyone has cooled off a little, I would like to see some intelligent discussion about what is right and wrong with both sites (and I don't want to hear all negative about the Pav and all positive about here, that's just not reality), how we can peacefully co-exist, and if there's anything the site admins should be doing differently to facilitate such a coexistence.
I would like to start off by explaining our structure here (mainly for the benefit of Pavilion members who happen to read this). We have two administrators: me and Vespuleth. He helped me get this place going in the beginning, we have always discussed any major changes (the chat being a minor exception), and we have become pretty good friends. When one of us takes action on an issue, it always seems like the other agrees on the way it was handled. In regards to this last incident, I think Ves handled it well. Please revisit the original StoreComics topic if you're interested (in the Domain Main archives). He basically warned that the topic was getting off course, and then shortly afterward, he closed it and moved it.
Moving on, our "next in command" is Nash. There was a period some time ago when neither Ves nor me had the time available to properly run this place, and Nash did a good job maintaining order. Due in part to past issues with the Pavilion, he is not a full-fledged administrator, but more of a global moderator, with the power to move/sticky/delete/close/reopen any topic. Another reason he is not an administrator is that I largely feel like two is enough.
The chain of command does not end there. We have about 20-30 regular members who always offer their input on anything important. Ves and I do not do anything that the majority of those members do not agree with. When there was an issue with the rules being broken, we all discussed what should be done. I like to think of Ves, Nash, and me as the police force of the message board, enforcing the few rules that we do have and trying to steer posts away from excessive controversy. The real power lies in our members, who help us to make any changes necessary.
So where does that put us in relation to the Pavilion? I feel as if the Pavilion is run slightly differently. I remarked above that our staff tries to steer topics away from controversy, or close them if they cross the line. In my mind, that is the most subtle, smoothest way for a place to operate. On the other hand, I sometimes feel like Valk enjoys the controversy, as if he likes to string it out and then flex his power to dramatically close topics and ban members. I'm not saying he always does this or that my approach is absolutely better (of course I believe it is, but if I didn't, I would run things differently), but that is how I feel about it. I think that the unfortunate thing about the latter approach is that it leads to animosity; there is no way to punish every infraction, so you end up picking and choosing, and then certain members feel unjustly acted upon. Some people become absolutely angry and do things like flame the board. I do understand that we are small, but we have never been visited by flamers, whereas Valk's comments seemed to indicate that such visits are old hat. By discussing matters as a community and trying to avoid pointless threads that only piss people off, I feel like we have avoided making enemies.
That is here, at the Domain. Unfortunately, some of our members have had issues in the past with the Pavilion. After what I've said above, you can probably guess that I feel this is almost a necessary end due to the practices mentioned above. I, myself, was somewhat disenchanted with the Pavilion, and I'm generally tolerant of a lot, so I can certainly understand others having more major problems. In light of that, I will not punish my members here for their actions elsewhere. As I have stated a few times recently, I have the power at the Domain to stop anything stupid that is going on, and I feel that Valk and his admins have the power there to do the same thing. If one of my members goes and does something there, he is doing so with a Pavilion account, as a member of the Pavilion, not as a member of the Domain.
Having said that, I do not want my members going over there and causing trouble. That is a personal request, not a request as an administrator. Partly due to this whole incident, I went 32 hours without sleep (I did have work and other things in that span). I spent a total about six hours addressing the problems that could have been invested in RPGM2, in improving the chat, or sleeping. For my sake and for those members who visit both communities, please do not go looking for trouble at the Pavilion.
In this recent incident, I don't feel like Nash went there to cause problems. I do think that Damien/Reality did, but he was doing it in some ill-thought-out retaliation to the way Nash was treated. It was not the right thing to do, and he has told me that he will not do anything stupid like that again. There will be no punishments handed out here, because they have done nothing wrong here. They have been banned at the Pavilion, and I do not believe in being punished twice for the same crime, especially when that crime was not in regards to one of my "laws".
I don't know where our relationship stands in regards to the Pavilion. I don't feel that our staff owes them an apology. I said what I think Valk did wrong, and I stand behind those statements. I do accept Valk's apology and I'm glad that he tried to explain himself here, but it's not so easy to forget the comments that were made. They still feel arrogant and elitist, and it has left a bad taste in my mouth.
I do think that Damien owes Valk an apology. The posts at the Pavilion were rather immature, and although Valk handled the situation terribly (in my opinion), that still doesn't give you the right to give him an ultimatum in regards to a lawsuit. It seemed to me like you just wanted to end the whole thing, but your wording was easily construed by Valk as a threat, and I can see how it could be interpreted that way.
I think that Valk owes the Domain an apology. He has apologized for some things, and tried to explain away others, but I think he really needs to address his degrading comments toward the Domain. I think that Valk owes Damien an apology regarding the release of his private data, and I think he should seriously reconsider his "policy". A "privacy policy" is actually a disclosure policy: it is to inform people of what information may be released. If it is not mentioned, then it may not be released. Privacy policies do not state what an organization will not release, but rather what they are allowed to release, and it's important for an administrator to realize that.
To any Pavilion members, I would like to point out that everything that I have said in this matter has been a criticism of Valk and the way things are run at the Pavilion, and not a direct criticism of the Pavilion itself. I have never made statements like "the Pavilion is..." or the "the Pavilionites are...." Instead, I feel that I made legitimate concerns regarding the way the Valk handled the situation, and tried to exonerate my staff, who I felt handled the issue well, of all charges.
I don't really know what to expect as far as replies, but I just want to point people back to the first paragraph. Please be smart, and please be considerate. Thank you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2006 11:03:10 GMT -5
Going back to what I was getting at at the end of the StoreComics topic at the Domain: If Damien was indeed he problem, the topic should have been closed. If Nash was indeed the problem, his account should have been deleted. I realized the problem was Valk's management a year ago when I left. People were incredibly vicious and nothing was done about it back then either. I called him on it a year ago through Pavilion private messages saying that change was needed in order to protect the people from cruelty (cruelty period; not unjust cruelty, just cruelty period) to which he roughly replied that the Pavilion posse wouldn't like losing their lack of freedom. Right then, he made the decision to abandon reforming the Pavilion and allow the cruelty to persist, and to this day it seems to have done so (I wouldn't know, I haven't been at the Pavilion for over a year now); it's no surprise to me that all this happened - it happened to me a year ago. I confronted Valk and told him something needed to be done about the cruelty that took place in the RPGM forums of the Pavilion; they were both messy due to lots of posts that had nothing to offer and shouldn't have been made (spam) and worse - cruel, hurtful, unjust, mean-spirited posts intended entirely just to hurt people. As to my understanding this is because there were no moderators viewing those forums at that time, or the moderators didn't have a proper sense of right and wrong (like Valkysas, which I am getting to). This is when I made the public topic announcing my leaving to try to draw attention to the problem. If you pay close attention to the topic you'll notice something though - something about Valkysas - proof all the way back a year ago that he lacks a proper sense of right and wrong. And that's why I gave up on the Pavilion. I realized there was no way things could ever be fixed there, not until Valkysas either gained a proper sense of right and wrong or someone new, like Doan, was put in charge. First Topic by Me_ www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4800Ryner's Edited Post: (roughly) 'Stop being such a baby, you ****ing ****y, and grow up.' Ryner's Second Post, which apparently there's nothing wrong with (Valk's opinion): (exact) 'I didn't flame you. You're acting like a 10-year-old, I politely asked you to stop acting like a little punk in an attempt to help you stop acting like a 10-year-old. If my efforts to make you a better person fell on dead, punky, 10-year-old ears, I apologize and ask that you are more understanding in the future. Thank you, God Bless.' Valk's Stated Opinion on Ryner's First Post: (exact) 'it did NOT get him a ban warning. the only reason it got deleted was because it wasnt on topic. he did nothing worth punishing. what you dont understand about ryner is that 99.9% of the time, he's joking around. thats obvious to almost everyone on the forum but you.' Second Topic by Me_ www.pavilionboards.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4820&page=1Ryner's First Post: (exact) 'I'd like to point out that: 'You're acting like a 10-year-old, I politely asked you to stop acting like a little punk in an attempt to help you stop acting like a 10-year-old. If my efforts to make you a better person fell on dead, punky, 10-year-old ears' This was not a joke. I was serious. I wasn't trying to be insulting though, I really was trying to make him realize he was acting like a douche.' Valk's Stated Opinion on Ryner's First Post in this Topic: (exact) 'I know that wasnt a joke, I know you were serious. it was good advice, which he ignored' So there you have it. Valkysas, even going back a whole year ago, without any excuse to justify it, had absolutely no sense of right and wrong and was in no way capable of making the Pavilion a safe place. When I left a year ago and tried to start 'Our Revolution', I did so because of this! I realized it one year ago, and it's God damn time the public realizes it! Of all the people that have gotten hurt at the Pavilion, we probably only notice/remember 1/10th. This needs to change! Innocent people need not suffer any longer! Let your voice be heard! Write to Agetec and tell them of how you've suffered at the hands of Valkysas and his posse, and demand that they not recommend people go to the Pavilion for help with the next RPG Maker like they did RPG Maker 3. Stop the innocent people from suffering before it happens! I am speaking on behalf of myself. I am a member of the Domain, but I am speaking on behalf of myself. !Viva la Revolucion!
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Post by BloodKnight on Sept 6, 2006 12:08:31 GMT -5
Yes, both sites are run differently. The Domain hasn't had too much trouble like the Pavilion has, which is good. But Valkysas embraces the oncoming train, and attempts to stop it using a counter-intuitive philosophy... and it works.
People who make a bad rep for themselves at the Pavilion, maintain it there. And personally, I've never seen Valkysas actually abuse his power(barring one case up for debate). I personally haven't seen much power abuse by others as well(even some staff members get in trouble), which exhibits a decent check of balances, in which all staff does their job at the needed time. I believe that, people who don't think too much before they post there, get what they deserve as replies. The community is diverse, there are great people there and there are great people who quite frankly, aren't gonna take a person's BS. There are some members who appear to be intimidating, as certain members here have noted. But then again if one is riled up by one member, who's to say the same won't happen anywhere else?
I've been "ridiculed"(for lack of a better term) by some pavilion members. It doesn't bother me. In fact I reply with witty remarks myself. Now I don't have trouble with anyone(except Mora, but he's an evil man) over there, and a lot of members like me as well. ^_^.
I think that the Pavilion is a great community, some domain members think otherwise and that's understandable. But to those who think adversely of them... Why bother irritating them?
The pavilion is near the same as I community I used to go to, Armageddon Games(AGN). There are people who come in and start trouble(or start trouble because they weren't welcomed with open arms by some of the more adverse members). Once they're banned or whatever, they COME BACK and start trouble again, for some skewed perception of revenge.
Those who haven't learned their lesson by now, try and hack the forums and all kinds of other BS stuff. But, it turns out they were never that mature enough in the first place to be hanging out there.
I think most popular communities unconscuously, take people through a hazing of sorts at some point. Whether or not you can take this determines your relationship there. If you're mature enough to counter this hazing with an "Is that all you got?" attitude, you're allowed to enjoy the company of great people. I've seen such scenarios happen many times on the internet and in real life.
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Post by doyleman on Sept 6, 2006 12:23:07 GMT -5
It would only make sense that sites are run differently. There are more than one methods of parenting, which is kinda similar to this issue.
People enjoy running things at their own pace, method, etc, as it makes things for them easier. Playing a game is a lot more easier while you're at comfort than distress, isn't it?
While we may not agree with what they're doing, that really doesn't give an excuse to excessively create problems by making profile after profile to try to 'get even', in where you're no better than those who bothered you themselves. Justice doesn't always come, and I believe sometimes it doesn't need to. I'm not saying murder should be ignored, but disagreement over the internet? Yes, what happened to Reality was very immature, and yes people could have simply said what's wrong with Nash's comic rather than calling it 'stupid', or of the sort. But come on. The angry man closes his eye's and opens his mouth. While I did quote that off of Anger Management, it really applies to this situation. A person who strikes in anger generally loses to those who think things through.
I agree with alot of what Bloodknight said, and while some of the people at the pavilion are making it hard to get 'into' the community, I don't think we're doing a good job ourselves if we're turning around and poking the lion with a stick over and over again.
I'll leave it as it is here, as I haven't much to say on the issue, anymore.
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Post by BloodKnight on Sept 6, 2006 12:39:32 GMT -5
IMO, I think the recent drama over there is because of the death of one of their valued members(Mistaf0pa). There's a lot of stress concerning many other members.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 13:45:28 GMT -5
Will... while I respect your opinion regarding your experiences at the Pavilion, I feel that you are truly exaggerating the situation. Pain and suffering and cruelty are rather strong words for things that are happening on a message board. Pain and suffering and cruelty are things that are happening in Iraq, in Lebanon, and in the hundreds of starving nations around the world. To call a bad experience on a message board "suffering" is almost a slap in the face to those who really are suffering. This talk of contacting Agetec is ridiculous, and should stop.
What we are talking about here is our relationship with the Pavilion. A few of our members have issues with them, mainly being Will, Nash, and now Reality. Will, you have done the right thing in simply staying away, but you really need to stop talking here about trying to cause a "revolution". Revolutions happen where a nation of people is being oppressed by a corrupt ruling class. I would really hesitate to call Valk a corrupt ruling class (since there's no possible way he can take anything from his "subjects"), and I would hardly call a few people a nation. The Pavilion is an important part of the RPG Maker community, and while it's unfortunate that some of our members are not appreciated there, there's no need to go causing trouble.
Nash, I think, has resolved the issues on his end, but he really needs to make sure to get Valk's okay before creating another account there. Rules are rules, and if you are not respecting a ban (even an unjustified one), then you are undermining the authority of the whole place. If the ban is unjust, you need to convince some people of that, starting with the admin. As I said before, I have talked to Reality about his issues.
Moving on, I think that BloodKnight and doyleman are largely right in their assessments. The Pavilion's "hazing" may be accepted in much of our culture, but I don't like it. If it works for them, then good for them. That kind of behavior will not be allowed to persist here. If you are the type of person who can't handle (or simply doesn't like) that kind of behavior, then I suggest staying away and coming here, at least until they change their policies.
And doyleman is right. Don't go and do something ignorant if you're not ready for the backlash. That doesn't make the backlash right, but you can't really expect anything else.
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Valkysas
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Pav
Posts: 56
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Post by Valkysas on Sept 6, 2006 14:52:48 GMT -5
I said I wouldnt be back, but I was notified about this topic by a pavilion member, and I figured that if there's discussion about the pavilion going on somewhere, I should come over and participate.
Bloodknight's words are pretty much my opinion on the matter. I'll make some additions though.
We have more problems because we're a bigger site. We have more bans because we're a bigger site. If this site ever grew to the pavilions size, you would get the flamers and the idiots we occasionally do.
Personally, I feel the people over here that have problems with the pavilion are those who do not respect the differences in the sites. The pavilion is not a place where people are required to be nice to eahch other all the time. In a community the size of the pavilion, people will have their differences, and if you dont allow them to talk through it, no matter how harsh the exchanges get, there's going to be very angry people with big grudges held against each other. As long as the arguments on the pavilion don't get too harsh, we don't interfere. random flaming, random attacks, and extremely harsh crticisms are dealt with very quickly.
Occasionally, you will see someone using fragmented english, and numbers instead of letters in their posts. These people are normally treated pretty harshly, and I'm all for that. If someone comes over and doesnt even show my people basic respect by using actual words and the ability to use basic english grammar, they can expect that same lack of disrespect right back. At the pavilion, you get what you give. you dont get any underserved negative attention. Likewise, if you treat people badly, leave for a long period of time and come back, expect them to remember, expect them to return it to you the first chance they get.
You may not agree with it. you may not respect it. you may think I'm a horrible leader. then tell me these things in person. my e-mail is publicly listed, as is my AIM info, I have a PM inbox as well. I will listen to anything you have to say to me, no matter how negative. the reason we stopped listening to will is because his final PM to me during an exchange (which resulted in my hiring new moderators like he requested) was an ultimatum to either ban ryner, or he'd leave and take all his games with him. I do not respond well to ultimatums. THAT is why I exploded in his final topic at the pavilion.
Each community is different. if you dont like the way one is run, then just stay away. don't flame it, don't invade it, and seriously, dont try changing it to fit your views of how you think it should be. start your own website if you want to do something like that.
As for revealing personal information about Damien, I don't regret it, and I won't apologize for it either. I've done it before with trolls because it works. the second they see that go up, they get scared. turns the tide against them. if you can dish it out at the pavilion, you damn well better be prepared to take it. After the incident was over, the information was removed from view at thetruecoolness' request.
The RPG Maker Pavilion has been around for six years now. It is the largest, and most active console RPG Maker website on the internet. You dont see a lot of RPG Maker talk there except from newer members because most of our members have mastered their favorite makers long ago and no longer need help, or are the type that prefer to figure things out for themselves. We continue to grow rapidly, with an average of one new user account registered each day (sometimes many more, sometimes less), and a steady stream of new games being submitted. We recieve an average of 1,300 unique hits from all across the globe every single day. When new RPG Makers are announced or released, we often hit 30,000+ unique users per day.
I'm not trying to show off. I'm trying to show you that despite all the problems we supposedly have, we are obviously doing some things very well.
Another thing I'd like to let people know, in case they werent aware of this before, I did not take over the pavilion because it was something I wanted to do. Blaze (a previous webmaster) handed the pavilion over to Ixzion because Blaze got tired of the site, and had a lot of personal things going on. Unfortunately, Ixzion was very busy with his personal life as well, and the pavilion ended up going for around 3 months without any updates. People started leaving, people started begging the remaining staff to do something about this. Many of them wanted me to take over. I wasnt so supportive of that idea. But no one else wanted to do it, and it was at the point that if stuff didnt start changing soon, the site would die. I took over because of that. I didnt want to see people give up on the pavilion, I didnt want it to die. Another fun fact, I've been forced into every staff position I've ever had at the pavilion. They needed mods one day, I was a mod at agetec, they decided to make me one too. Blitz needed someone to help him take over the site for a bit while Blaze was on vacation, he made me an admin without me knowing beforehand. Marlwolf stepped down as head of forums, he made me head of forums. eventually people pretty much made me the webmaster of the pavilion as well. This tells me the people over there have tremendous faith in me, and they trust me with their "online home". They see things in me that I don't even believe exist.
I run the pavilion for these people, no one else. if people over here that don't even visit the pavilion do not like me, or the pavilion itself, it does not matter to me. I'm only out to serve the members over there. become an active member at the pavilion, and then you can tell me what to do, and dammit, I'll listen. So much of the pavilion is the way it is now because people wanted it to be that way. William wanted me to get more mods, and I did, because he - an active pavilion member - told me it should be done. Then he hit me up with an ultimatum to ban ryner or lose him. I dont respect people who do this sort of thing, so I happily lost Will.
If the pavilion members ever decided that they dont want me to run the site, then I'll listen to them and step down as well. Their opinion drives everything that happens at the site, not what people who dont even post want.
Thats pretty much all I have to say on the matter right now. I will be back later to respond to any posts directed at me.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 15:13:13 GMT -5
This is the kind of response I was hoping for. While we can agree to disagree on the whole "privacy issue", I now feel as if I can see where you are coming from, and this feels like much more of a resolution to me than what we came to yesterday. Thanks for coming by and saying how you feel and maintaining a level head through your last post.
I hope you can see that the staff here and the majority of the members don't have a problem with the Pavilion, and that the comments I made were intended to be "constructive criticism" of your actions, as well as defending our own. Thank you for your ongoing work in running the Pavilion and promoting the RPG Maker series.
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Post by Rodak on Sept 6, 2006 16:40:16 GMT -5
There is much to read here.
And I have much to say.
And little time this evening.
I've been keeping quiet, mostly because by the time I articulated a response... The topics got locked.
I'll try to state my opinions tomorrow.
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Post by realitybites on Sept 6, 2006 17:02:47 GMT -5
A apology should be told to me Valk, and I to you, why? Because, the other night I checked my email, and there was an email, oddly a email from my friend list, it said this "this is what you get!" I went to bed, and woke up this morning to find, a system message on my computer, I have a program that automatically detects when a virus comes and when its spreading and where its at, turns out it was spreading so fast, that if I didn't heal it I woulda been out of a computer, and if it woulda broke matters woulda got worse, so Valk I do think you do owe me an apology, if not im sad to say Im gonna have to get the court system involved, my dad is willing to do it, hes very upset.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2006 17:17:34 GMT -5
This is serious stuff Valkysas. Rules are there for a reason. You were legally binded by court of law and failed to abide by it. You need to accept your responsibility.
As crazy as it is, I actually offered to pitch in $200 to Damien so that he could sue you for this. You need to learn your lesson Valk. These are real people you are dealing with. You've hurt too many people by allowing anarchy and chaos to run rampant. You can't ignore it any longer; you have to face the truth. You have failed as a leader. Too many people have been hurt due to your lack of attention to cruel members. Me, damien, and nash are not the only victims of your fallacy either. Of all the people that have gotten hurt at the Pavilion, we probably only notice/remember 1/10th of them. It pains me knowing that Agetec recommends that people go to you and Ryner for RPGM3 help. If we, I, don't stand up for the people, who will? I know Valkysas doesn't compare to Hitler or Bush, but someone needs to be held accountable and reform is needed!
Again, I am a member of the Domain, but I speak on behalf of myself.
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Valkysas
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Pav
Posts: 56
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Post by Valkysas on Sept 6, 2006 17:36:34 GMT -5
This is the bull that keeps me away from this place. No, I wasnt. There's no guarantee to privacy on the pavilion, and I cannot be held responsible for what people assume. You really dont know anything about internet privacy laws, do you? www.netatty.com/privacy/privacy.htmlRead that. Now read this: www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs18-cyb.htmMost internet privacy laws involve only e-mail messages and credit card information. IP addresses and e-mail addresses are not covered by any part of the law. in fact, there are options in Vbulletin to make e-mail addresses viewable to everyone, AND to make IP addresses viewable by everyone. Many other websites make your IP public, such as wikipedia.org, which uses your IP address to identify you unless you make an account there. Are they doing anything illegal? No! a site as large as that one would have been called out on it long ago if making IP addresses public was against the law. BUT IT ISNT. UNLESS THERE IS A PRIVACY POLICY STATING THAT THERE IS A RIGHT TO PRIVACY ON SAID WEBSITE, THERE IS NO GUARANTEE TO PRIVACY OF INFORMATION. I am SICK you you threatening legal action against me when I didnt break the law. The law doesnt bend to your will, people! Damien, I don't owe you anything since you were the one that attacked the pavilion first. I dont believe this e-mail you mention even exists, nor do I have any reason to. None of my members would send you anything like you described. the e-mail was put there just to identify you. Now knock it off, and grow up. learn the law before you try using it in a stupid argument. Doan said that this was supposed to be an intelligent discussion, and neither of your posts are approaching anything near intelligent.
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Post by NASH7777 on Sept 6, 2006 18:00:37 GMT -5
Ok guys seriously grow up. Damien/Reality/Drew your comps fine now. In fact I assume you have tons of other e-mails you could use or at least make a new one. This is not to turn into a flame convo, I don't agree a lot with tactics at the Pav and Valk so I'm just gunna stay away I'll be happy and they'll be happy. Win win right? I am upset that future members will have to endure similiar things we have and I don't think it right but overtime they will come to the same conclusion I have. I only hope that it doesn't dissuade a person from becoming a skilled game maker. And I don't think it will, the game making topics are the cleanest at the Pav, but when it comes to comments about ideas they can be harsh but nothing new there. Valk boasts a large community with tons of post. But how many of those posts are about RPGM and how many members are actively contributing. Just be glad that your contributing to rpgm, your part of a sound community, and it doesn't matter what goes down at the Pav.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 18:03:31 GMT -5
Enough already, will. We all get that you want to get back at Valk. This is not the place to voice those frustrations. This topic specifically, as Valk said, is for intelligent discussion of what is wrong (in your opinion) with various sites. Throwing around threats and accusations is not discussion.
Reality: Viruses do not just appear on your computer from opening an e-mail (unless, of course, you have an outdated, security-hole-filled version of M$ Windoze). If you first downloaded a file, then double clicked on the resulting .exe, then you deserve whatever happened to you. It would be kind of silly to do such a thing if an e-mail said "this is what you get". Furthermore, viruses don't "spread throughout your computer", it's not like a human virus. A virus runs on your computer, does bad things, and often distributes itself to others. Moreover, it would be very difficult for a virus to cause physical hardware damage: the only way would be to rewrite your Operating System code to run your hardware (i.e. CD drives) at a ridiculous speed, or some other crazy stuff. And if your virus software automagically detected it doing this, why didn't it detect it in the e-mail? Enough with the empty threats already... they serve no good, and I'm sorry I ever even mentioned anything like that.
Edit: I deleted your post Valk, because I deleted Will's before I could see yours, and your response no longer made sense.
Nash is right. We might not like how some things are (and it may be possible that others don't as well), but that is why we are two separate places. I do think we need a way for other people to know about the various other communities.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 18:12:58 GMT -5
This is the bull that keeps me away from this place. Um... I don't think that's really a fair statement. It's not as if "bull " like that is not said at the Pavilion, and it's not as if every single member here is talking like that. Moreover, the administrators haven't even had a chance to properly respond, and they are posts by the members that I've already named above who already have issues with the Pavilion. To say "this place" is bad due to that is a bit much. This is not really a balanced comparison. Before you submit your edits to Wikipedia, it clearly states that your IP address will be posted, unless you have an account. There is no such measure at the Pavilion, and if you don't have something in some policy somewhere that must be read and agreed to, you may be treading on thin ice. I'm just saying, you may want to check that out, because it's not worth pissing off the wrong person and having to deal with problems.
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Valkysas
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Pav
Posts: 56
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Post by Valkysas on Sept 6, 2006 18:17:41 GMT -5
Basically what I mean was that I dont come here often because whenever I do, I always get the feeling will is going to yell at me.
as for the comparisson with wikipedia, yeah, it wasnt that balanced, but its all I could think of at the time. anyways, Vbulletin wouldnt include such options to make e-mail addresses and IP addresses public for everyone if such a thing were illegal. I keep up to date on all laws pertaining to the internet, because we've had a lot of these problems before.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 18:31:38 GMT -5
That brings up an important point. Some of our members feel that same way about the Pavilion. I can say that I would handle such off-topic rants as soon as I see them, but I would like to know that those of our members who go to the Pavilion are also treated fairly.
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Valkysas
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Pav
Posts: 56
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Post by Valkysas on Sept 6, 2006 18:35:03 GMT -5
Anyone that attacks another member without provocation are issued a ban warning immediately. My PM inbox is always open as well if people feel theres something that has been overlooked.
Some people believe there is bias at the pavilion, as far as who we will and will not punish. not the case at all. mods have been banned, admins have been banned, and I was once banned. No one is exempt from the rules.
And although you don't punish people for what your members do in the community outside of your site, We do. The pavilion staff has always banned anyone who goes to another site just to cause trouble. this rule was started back when the RM2K piraters started invading the pavilion, and it will never be gotten rid of. we dont tolerate trolls at all.
So if anyone from the pavilion ever decides to cause problems here, let me know.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2006 20:26:59 GMT -5
I think I did a damn good job of proving whether there's biasedness in rule enforcement at the Pavilion in my first post of this topic. Seriously, just give it up already.
edit: Just what the hell is 'provocation' to you? Nash posting his comics? Me asking why people are allowed to be cruel? Someone posting their story and asking for it to be critiqued? Do you have any capability of human emotion? Do you care at all? Yes, the suffering doesn't compare to the suffering in Iraq or Lebanon, but that's no reason to ignore it.
I'll do what I need to to stand up and fight for the people who have suffered at your hands, Valkysas. It may be partly out of revenge, but it's also partly to save the people who will have suffered in the future and have suffered in the past. Hopefully I've made people realize that nothing can be accomplished due to your lack of concern for people. I ask you, people, can you see that from what I have posted here?
When Doan started the Domain he told me, 'if I make it, they will come.' Well, it happened and it will continue to happen. People, you do not have to follow Valkysas and the Pavilion simply because they are heavily populated or have RPGM1/3/XP users. Welcome to the Domain, the best place on the net. I know you'll come to agree with me in time.
Yellow card Will. Take ten.
~Ves
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Ixzion
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Mag
Posts: 62
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Post by Ixzion on Sept 6, 2006 20:43:49 GMT -5
I'm glad most of us are dicussing this with a cool head now.
I know it's been echoed in here, but if you can't stand a certain place, leave it alone. Each place has a distinctive flavor that won't be changed on someone's whim, which is what we must realize.
Sure, the way someone else does something may be different, but that doesn't make them wrong or you right. It only makes it different. That's something I had to learn myself.
I didn't like the way the Pav did business (and the way quite a few members treated me) in 2002, so I left and made the Mag and focused on it. I turned the negative energy into positive energy. I believe it would be a good step here, too.
------- To elaborate on my stint as Pav chief:
When I was in charge of the Pav, I couldn't update like I should have (Only a couple people, Gloomy and Blaze, knew I was busy trying to build the framework for RPGMaker.com, the Mag/Pav merger). That was my fault entirely. However, what started a year-long beef with the Pav was that Kire, without warning, just booted me off the site. That was a straight b*tch move. So, instead of telling me like a man, he got Valk to do the dirty work. And I proceeding to get angry with Valk because of the way I got booted from the site. Even though I was booted because I didn't do the job that was expected, I didn't get angry with myself. And it lead to that year of turmoil when we could have been working together.
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Post by NASH7777 on Sept 6, 2006 20:46:41 GMT -5
Valk already apologized on how he handled the comic thing and as far as I"m concerned everything is hunky-dory. I also apologized on things on my behalf. And yes my concern with the pav is that future people don't get hurt or upset because of some of the things that go on there. Valk is in the process of working on the issues. Please let this drop, and I ensure that Valk is working on stuff as I speak. We'll bring it to his attention if we come up with any ideas to make it a better place yet still keep a certain pav atmosphere about it. If you don't like it there, don't go there. If your concerned about others just trust me that he's working on the edicate with still allowing his members freedom in what they say, just to do it in a more tactful less hateful way.
Others still feel free to add to this convo. Doan is anxious to here your ideas, feelings, and comments.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2006 20:48:16 GMT -5
He threatened you, didn't he?
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Ixzion
RPG Making Novice
Runs the Mag
Posts: 62
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Post by Ixzion on Sept 6, 2006 20:49:50 GMT -5
If there's one thing about Valk, it's that if he tells you he's going to do something, he's going to do it. He may have a different delivery, but he'll be honest with you. That's something I respect in all people.
Poop, you're letting your immense hatred blind your rationality. I have been there already. But it's not the way.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2006 21:05:05 GMT -5
The first part of shi post is edited out for being a flame.Honestly, I believe Nash was threatened by Valk! Valk would stoop that low! Look at what he's already done! Look at what he did to Damien! Damien could have gotten a virus, or lost his bank account or something! This is serious stuff! He doesn't care at all! Denies everything! Everything! Too many people have suffered. You've noticed it too, haven't you? I know I sure as have! I showed how in my first post here! Doan explained it too! Nash and Damien's topics are good examples too! It's chaos and anarchy there, and Valkysas doesn't care! Am I blind?! Fine, so I'm not the 'savior'! Fine, so you can think of me as the 'villain' if you want! Does it make a difference?! And I'm sorry Doan, I know this post is getting out of hand, but I gotta do it for the people. They need me. I must answer their cries for help. (please keep the content intact) Valkysas needs to be overthrown because he has no sense of right and wrong, as I showed above. It's that simple. He doesn't care about the people. He prefers to exert his power and let his posse hurt people. I wish it weren't true, Nash, but it is. Again, I am a member of the Domain, but I speak on behalf of myself.
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Post by The zoradude on Sept 6, 2006 21:47:18 GMT -5
I guess I want to chime in cause I <3 drama tbh (I played world of warcraft in a top guild on my server for far to long to miss out on any drama. anyways)
Anyway that seems a bad way to start a post right? Meh Speaking my mind anyway on to the core of this post. I am mainly wanting Valk to read this and maybe acknowledge it I believe so here.
Me flaming came to my attention in the post Valk made on the pav about everything going on recently with the flaming etc.
"So while it was wrong what Damien did, and last I checked Doan admitted this, over at the domain at the time only the member Zoradude had a ligitmate flame of the pavillion, though there were some other accusations about it it was no "flame war"."
from thetruecoolness
well I need to say a few things, I DO need to apologize for what I said, i kind of jumped the gun a bit on that one mainly because Nash is one of my close friends, I mean the dude lemme send him a memory card through the mail so I could play his first Zelda game when it was in his early stages, were talking about when we used gamefaqs as our main source of communication YEARS ago. I have known him for a while and well when I saw what was on the pav what people said about his comics I kind of got mad about it. But like I said i jumped the gun a little.
So anyway sorry about that one valk, as much as I really can't stand your attitude half the time to be honest I do respect you and really didn't mean to flame like that, it was one of those of the moment things if you know what i mean.
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