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Post by vespuleth on Feb 12, 2005 12:33:45 GMT -5
yeah, thats kind of what i was getting at. and when i start to stuff like that, stuff that the player never knows about, and such, i start to wonder how worth it it is.
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Feb 12, 2005 16:11:54 GMT -5
When I write, I focus on what the characters know and have to deal with. Cultural and enviromental information only comes up if it is actually important to the story. Often I skimp on the details and I need to work on that, but I'm not going to create tons of detail that I will never use.
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Post by vespuleth on Feb 12, 2005 16:29:26 GMT -5
i think its important to find a middleground. developing all of that detail you wont use will help you flavor what you will use, and make the environment creation process. but spending outrageous amounts of time on it is, well, a waste of time and effort.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2005 18:18:39 GMT -5
Yeah, perhaps you can tell from the similarities between our world and the one in my game, but I didn't do any background info for the world and whatnot until I'd written all the story out, and then conformed the world the way I needed it for the story. I think both ways are good though.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 13, 2005 15:14:15 GMT -5
The way I see it, if I make the backstory for the world first, it would create an environment for the story. It would seem that creating the world first would make it easier to create the actual story.
This is how I see it. First, you make the world. Next, characters (creating two sections for each one: backstory and personality traits). Then, selecting the character to serve as the main character. Finally, creating the story. Then, I would take KingSpoom's advice and let the story rest. Does this seem like a good idea?
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Feb 13, 2005 15:52:07 GMT -5
Whatever works for you is okay. The important thing is that you don't make the story up as you go along. This can cause logistic problems as well as the need to delete and redo stuff as you go along becuse you came up with a better idea.
Get all your ideas first, put them in a logical order, throw out what you don't need, make sure the world makes sense for the things that happen in it (ex. if magic is rare, you can't have random encounters against magic users), then start making your game.
Good luck.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 13, 2005 15:55:47 GMT -5
Yeah. That's pretty much what I'm doing.
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Post by vespuleth on Feb 13, 2005 16:01:27 GMT -5
so, are there any actual details you can give us?
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 13, 2005 16:13:03 GMT -5
I suppose so. Here goes: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Government: The people follow a theocracy. They obey the laws and customs that the gods have given them. The gods have separated the world into units known as parishes. From each parish, the gods appoint a man/woman with righteous qualities to rule over that parish, along with the rest of his/her descendants. They are known as mystics and have unique communications to the gods. Their homes are located underneath the temple they rule from. Mystics are not allowed to own money, for it would make them greedy. So, taxes are appointed to pay for food, drink, and clothing for the mystic and his/her family. All the laws of the world are written in the Pantheon. However, the mystics have written them down on scrolls for reference. If a mystic is to disobey these laws, they will step out of office and their oldest son/daughter will be appointed new mystic. In the case that an entire dynasty of mystics dies out, God will select a new one. Entertainment: Due to the climate, the people of (country) are able to go to the beach all year round. Young men and women enjoy bodysurfing and dancing at night by a bonfire. Older people, who are less active as the younger generation, just relax and enjoy the beauty of the ocean. Children build sand castles and wade in the water. Although holy men and women supervise the government, rowdy establishments such as taverns and casinos can still be found. Most men take delight in wine, women, and song, and hence, they come to these on a regular basis. Most men have arisen as wealthy aristocrats after a few games at casinos while others have hit poverty. If one is traveling through a forest, they may be given the chance to play a game with a dryad, a tree spirit. Those who have won have received something good while others have been punished for losing. Orchestral music is enjoyed by many of the upper-class officials throughout the world. It is common for weekly concerts to be held for haughty aristocrats. Arion, the god of music, invented orchestral music. He was inspired by it by listening to the sounds of nature. He made the violin after the sound crickets make. He made the trumpet after the majestic call of the great birds. He made the piano after the tranquil rain. He, then, gave man these great instruments to perform so that the whole world may hear their beautiful sounds. (This next one might be a bit bizarre, but criticism is welcome for anything) Religion: The religion is polytheism. Over 1000 gods exist, each listed as hieroglyphics in the Pantheon. It is believed that the gods created the Earth. However, humans created the world. Billions of years ago, humans had no shell to call a body and were wandering spirits, floating around the universe. When their minds were combined, these spirits were able to create a beautiful sphere they called Earth. When they went down to the Earth’s surface to admire their beautiful creation, many elements, delighted by their masters for creating them, combined around the human’s ghostly bodies to create a physical shell so that they may live there in harmony forever. The humans adapted to their new environment, creating cities and palaces as their homes. For awhile, they lived in paradise. However, it would not last for long. The humans, although comfortable with their home, were still lacking in proper leaders. They elected many individuals to be their leaders, however, no man could rule without becoming a selfish dictator. So, after a while, they decided to try to create new ones. Carving idols and praying to them in unison, they created many gods. However, each one seemed as power-hungry and selfish as human rulers did. What the people needed was a god who could rule the gods and keep them in order. All the people of the world, men, women, and children, all left their duties and carved a gigantic idol that rose to the heavens. They sang praise to it and named him God, because he was the one, all-mighty god who would rule all the gods and humans. As time went by, the mental abilities of humans faded away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, there you go. I'm thinking about changing Arion's name, but this won't be a major plot in the game (don't even know if I'll use that), so it may not even matter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2005 18:04:16 GMT -5
That's incredible!! All of it's very interesting, logical, believable, unique (to my knowledge), and definitely can go lots of different ways story-wise. I love all of it. I like saying that humans created God, but creating Earth is a little wierd (perhaps they 'created Earth the way it is now', meaning they changed it a lot from the way it originally was). Yeah, this is real quality stuff. I could sit here and point out everything I think is good/like but it'd take a while. You've nothing to worry about. The dryad thing's also not explained very much. I'm VERY impressed. On a side note, you're the first person ever besides me to put "(country)" in their game plans. You're the man!
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Post by Dungeon Warden on Feb 13, 2005 19:36:09 GMT -5
I don't know how much of that will be useful in the game, but it certainly creates an interesting backstory. Well done.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 13, 2005 20:23:23 GMT -5
I'm glad to here you guys liked it. I had a feeling people were going to feel a bit weird about the whole "people creating Earth" thing. I'll work on that. As for the dryad thing, I'll also work on that as well. P.S. BTW, Will. I got the whole idea of (country) off you. I thought that wasn't bad idea, so I decided to try it out as well.
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Post by vespuleth on Feb 13, 2005 22:52:52 GMT -5
so wait, let me get this straight:
the humans are 'gods' and created the earth
the humans then, needing a ruling structure, created rulers
the rulers were corrupt, so the humans created 'gods' to rule the rulers
(interestingly, i like the idea of the human rulers and the 'god' rulers sharing the same corrupt nature. it only makes sense since both are the creation of man...)
when the 'gods' are corrupt, the humans create another, supreme 'god' to rule over them
does no one else see the faulty idea here, and the redundancy?
if the humans are themselves capable of creating a planet, why are they so confused about their own nature that they then think they need 'gods'?
furthermore, why the whole sickening cycle of when one creation falls into the same trap as the last, creating a new something to take its place, and give it a different definition, or pretend role, so that it doesnt. if the humans are creating it, it will be no different, regardless of how they... define it.
i think this idea could be good, so long as an 'ultimate (in the since of your game at least)' truth comes out of it. are the humans the highest order? or is their a higher order? if the humans are the highest order, why are they not sentient enough to recognize that? or conversely, if they are not the highest order, what would make them believe they were, and what would counter that? why does this humanity powerful enough to create a planet feel that it needs a higher order, and how are they deciding this higher order?
i think this whole area needs a little work... just some explanation as to where the spiritual death of the humans took place (the thing that made them forget that they created the planet, and bound themselves w/ physical bodies) or whether or not it ever did take place.
ultimately, i must ask what bearing on your game this has? is the player the character that realizes the true source of divinity, and applies it, finally solving the problem of leadership for the people?
also, what does this say about the society as a whole? one that seems so indecisisve as a whole could not be a large conglomerate, or single nation, but would probably be divided into sects and city states. also, i can see a whole lot of faulty politics, shady deals, and territory war as a possibility. the important part of this would be that the people would almost certainly have to fail to see their own corruption, but notice immediately the corruption in others. this could also lead to the confusion among elected rulers.
further, is this final 'god' truly final? or is he just the next step in the human effort to have a leader? and if this is not the solution, what is? and if it is the solution, what makes it different then the previous attempts (the only thing i can think of is that the existance of one supreme God is truth, but that doesnt seem to be where your going)? so thats my thoughts.
i guess i disagree w/ will a little. i think alot of it is dressed up. but i think your torn on the actual route you want to take. i think that maybe the religion needs to be thought out better. for example, you named a god, and said he invented music, as well as saying there are thousands of gods, and then proceed to say that they are actually not real, but rather the invention of the people. does this mean that the god that invented music didnt actually invent music? and if not, who did. if he did, then is he truly a god? and if he is, what identifies him as so? and what other true gods are there? and why are the people ignorant of their presence? and if they arent ignorant of their presence, what makes them so fearless of their presence that they would invent a god to rule over them? are the gods somehow in submission to the humans? and if so, what makes them gods?
i think all of this needs to be thought out.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2005 23:59:08 GMT -5
Yeah. The religion could be explained better. What I got out of it was the humans created the idea of many Gods and created the idea that one main God created Earth, they created Earth the way it is now, and mystics (people who can talk to God, or at least made the people think so) were elected to become the rulers, and (I didn't see why) the mystics' relatives become rulers after the mystics die. It sounds pretty believable because that's pretty much like what's happened with various groups of people all over our world in the past, and once the mystics are in power they can control the masses by wielding the wrath of God as weapon and spreading fear among the people. Corruption is definitely something I noticed too.
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Post by vespuleth on Feb 14, 2005 10:02:59 GMT -5
i would understand if it stopped there. what i see is that the humans created mystics to rule the world, who were supposedly chosen by gods, and then when the mystics failed, the humans created gods (!?) to rule over them. but shouldnt gods have already existed to rule over them? isnt that why they were mystics? its like trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg.
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Post by Doan the Nado on Feb 14, 2005 11:51:41 GMT -5
What I got was that the humans TRULY created gods, through combined prayer, just as they created the earth. Also, they truly created the supreme God, but like Ves said, it definitely needs to be explained why the gods were corrupt but not God. Perhaps the humans sacrificed and gave up their free spirits to create an all-powerful God? That would tie a couple of elements together, and make a little more sense. Perhaps it could be something like the humans gave up their wisdom and spiritual power as a final hope of making a wise, righteous ruler.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 14, 2005 16:52:17 GMT -5
Yeah. I suppose I didn't explain the religion enough and it made everything seem whack, however... And I'll still work on that idea. I like what Doan said about humans given up their psychic abilities to create God. Perhaps that may make the idea of humans creating the Earth and gods make more sense. EDIT: BTW, humans didn't create mystics. God selected certain righteous individuals to rule over the humans. It's kind of like the idea rulers had in ancient times (even during the medieval times and the Renaissance), the rulers thought they were selected by the gods (or God) to rule over the people. Then, like kings or queens, they would rule like a dynasty. Their descendents would carry on their bloodline (and, their God-given abilities). So, therefore, it would go in this order (with the advice Doan gave). Humans created the gods. Then, they sacrificed their abilities to God in order to create him. Finally, God selected those righteous enough to become mystics. And if the mystic died (and didn't have any others of the bloodline to rule in his/her absence), then God would select a new mystic. Just to clear that up. If anyone has anymore advice, comments, whatever for all this, just leave it here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2005 20:04:53 GMT -5
The one thing that still doesn't wuite make sense is that the mystics' relatives become the rulers thereafter. It would make more sense if the people (aka. God because of what they believe) chose a new mystic that had been a good person and they thought would be a good leader, kind of like what happens with Popes in our world (I'm not 100% sure). Basically, the way it makes sense to me is that the people actually do everything and create everything (except the first human and the planet, etc.) but believe that God did, kind of. Maybe I'm being too much of an atheist though (so to say).
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 14, 2005 20:24:27 GMT -5
Not a bad idea, Will.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 15, 2005 16:02:11 GMT -5
I'm changing the religion. I had a much better idea. If you guys want to read it, you'll have to wait because I'll have to type it and flesh things out so things make sense. It could end up being a major part of my storyline.
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Post by vespuleth on Feb 16, 2005 9:46:42 GMT -5
cant wait to hear about it.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 16, 2005 19:44:00 GMT -5
Everything else I wrote will be the same, except the mystics will be voted by the people and I'm crossing out the idea of Arion and the symphony music.
Anyway, just in case anyone was wondering.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2005 19:56:52 GMT -5
I like Arion and the symphony music. I do see how it would be hard to build story around it.
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 16, 2005 20:51:58 GMT -5
Arion and his music might not work out for my new religion. You'll see why. I liked it a bit myself, not that I'm glorifying my work or anything ;D!
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Post by Neo Samurai on Feb 17, 2005 16:40:35 GMT -5
Okay!
I think I'll place the religion on tomorrow. We'll see what happens.
In the mean time, enjoy the Dancing Link in my sig ;D!
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