Solved:2 more questions ^^;

[mercenaryx]

so guys, as you've said making one big script for events in common areas, though only uses one event file (is there a limit of number of events/scripts you can make?) uses the same amount of memory as several small simple ones. (for example, enterances and exits invisible zone events all calling the same, or different scripts to decide where the players warp destinations are) the only difference is that larger scripts allow more room for error and are harder to read (which is true)

so i may be beating a dead horse with this first question:

1.) would it be more beneficial to compile all the dialog that all the npc's say into one script for when the player hits "talk"? or to have one seperate script for each conversation that exists?

and this second one is a little different

2.) Which is more memory efficient? using object modeled stairs? or constructing your own set of stairs out of blocks in the editors?

[dailycolbert]

"1.) would it be more beneficial to compile all the dialog that all the npc's say into one script for when the player hits "talk"? or to have one seperate script for each conversation that exists?"

It would be much easier and shouldn't be much more memory-consuming to just have each event have their own dialog (or anything else) script. You're already making an Event to be walking around (or sitting there) anyways, so attaching a Content Script to each Event costs very little (cost of one empty script plus script commands).

"2.) Which is more memory efficient? using object modeled stairs? or constructing your own set of stairs out of blocks in the editors?"

The Object stairs. Buildings consume quite a lot of memory. One tip for buildings though is to texture your blocks the same whenever possible. Building memory is determines mainly by the number of differently-tiled blocks you use and not so much by the number of blocks.

[Dungeon Warden]

Jun 26, 2008 20:31:25 GMT -5 mercenaryx said:

1.) would it be more beneficial to compile all the dialog that all the npc's say into one script for when the player hits "talk"? or to have one seperate script for each conversation that exists?

Looking at FuMa, it seems most beneficial to compile all the dialogue of each seperate npc into scripts and then you your adventure counter (a variable that tracks what part of the adventure your character is in) to check what the character will say when there are talked to.

For example, in FuMa the sky darkens later in the game and most NPC's start to talk to you about the sky. Other NPCs will change what they say depending on how far you are into the game.

You don't want to use the same script for different npcs unless they same basically the same thing (random townspeople could use the same script and every Innkeeper would say basically the same thing, for example)

2.) Which is more memory efficient? using object modeled stairs? or constructing your own set of stairs out of blocks in the editors?

A single object is obviously going to take up less memory then several blocks. one object roughly equals one untextured block.

[raithwall]

Fuma did practically everything as confusing and memory inefficient as you can possibly get, and so did the presets. Your scripts should be in the 400-500 range, not 1500+ and they should have names. Heck they even gave each dungeon its own unit placement.

Well the presets are setup for beginners, so no sorting database numbers, because if the number changes you have to change it, but sorting database numbers is too good to ignore, so do it after you make all the items and abilities. Pay close attention to how you sort your items and abilities, if you make a bunch of spells that do the same thing it might be good to have them next to each other.

1) Yes it is better to put all npc dialog into about 10-20 scripts depending on what you have to work with. 1 script is too limiting.

For example, I made 8 town villager events all of which shared a single motion script that gives them random icons. I have them linked to 8 different scripts that sort world number and apply text. I also have them linked to a random text script.

Remember to make call scripts for common situations. Yes or No is a good one to make. All that does is input the multiple choice, but since the input costs over 100 memory its a huge difference to call it from a script for only 4. If you have 100 yes/no situations, you just saved 10,000 memory!

If you give every single warp its own event and script like the presets do: town > world. world > town, for every single warp thats 240 memory every single time. If you have 100 warps you will save 20,000 memory by consolidating them into a 1-10 different events!

So don't be decieved when it comes to events and scripts. 160 for every event and 80 for every script is huge and 1500 scripts is insane! The game you can make with 500 is three times bigger then the ones made with 1500, so unless your project is small dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

Yeah long scripts can be annoying sometimes, but I find its equally bad if not worse to have too many events and scripts. Ill try to look up scripts, flags, and variables, and sometimes go right past them or not see them and it gets annoying.

Really would be nice if they had a search feature in the game. I cant count the number of times Ive dumped something in the trash just to see whats using it. Wish I could do that with variables.

2) Warps, Chests, Townspeople, like I said: the time to make a new event and script is when you want to increase the quantity of different applications that exist in the same world or room. You sort the world number for each of them and apply the treatment.

Also, in regards to memory, another thing to consider is passwords and new game files. I personally don't have a sense for passwords. I use 2 game files and the first one ends with being thrown in jail and losing all your stuff anyway, but I did have to do things as memory efficient as possible just to make sure they got that far.

Still I do have some things coded. I set it up so that you have to input 1 or 2 digits at a time which directly affect certain variables. If you choose a number that I know you cant have I turn on a flag, but I dont actually check for this flag till the end, so that its not easy to pinpoint where it went wrong.

A good place to free some space is in the VFX editor. Dysect your visual effects and combine them in scripts. Instead of giving 5 a red firework, just give the red firework its own effect and combine it.

In the enemy effects, look for ones that are either used very little or that very closely resemble others. Like sword and dagger, you can get away with only one of them. Slash 1 and 2, Swarm 1-3, etc.

Theres like 20 enemy actions you can make, but ive never seen a need to use more then the default setup. sometimes you'll have a guy using a fire effect and then casting an ice spell. In that case you would have to change his attack b to a more generic casting effect, or else limit him to fire spells.

[Dungeon Warden]

Jun 28, 2008 11:07:28 GMT -5 raithwall said:

Fuma did practically everything as confusing and memory inefficient as you can possibly get, and so did the presets. Your scripts should be in the 400-500 range, not 1500+ and they should have names.

What are you talking about? FuMa was very efficient at squeezing a lot of information into the game. The reason it was confusing was that it was so efficient. It's amazing how much they managed to pact into those long scripts and still have everything run smoothly.

FYI: everything in FuMa was labled; however it was labled in Japanese and it would have taken years to translate it all. We're lucky to even get FuMa at all.

Heck they even gave each dungeon its own unit placement.

Of course every dungeon should have it's own Unit placement. I can't believe you would suggest otherwise.

For example, I made 8 town villager events all of which shared a single motion script that gives them random icons. I have them linked to 8 different scripts that sort world number and apply text. I also have them linked to a random text script.

That's fine for random villagers but each important NPC should have their own script.

If you give every single warp its own event and script like the presets do: town > world. world > town, for every single warp thats 240 memory every single time. If you have 100 warps you will save 20,000 memory by consolidating them into a 1-10 different events!

The savings isn't that much because along with the 100 warps you need some way to sort all those warp commands. You still need to have an event at every warp point even if it's the same event. Overall you may not be saving much memory but you would save some.

So don't be decieved when it comes to events and scripts. 160 for every event and 80 for every script is huge and 1500 scripts is insane! The game you can make with 500 is three times bigger then the ones made with 1500, so unless your project is small dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

While I agree that you shouldn't waste space with scripts that can be put together with other scripts, you shouldn't be afraid to use as many scripts as you need either.

Yeah long scripts can be annoying sometimes, but I find its equally bad if not worse to have too many events and scripts. Ill try to look up scripts, flags, and variables, and sometimes go right past them or not see them and it gets annoying.

And it's not annoying to have to scroll through a long script looking for something you want to change? Both ways are annoying. I agree that RPG Maker 2 really needs a search feature.

The rest of your memory saving ideas make sense, if your game is so big that it requires them. I'd rather see different VFX for different attacks but if you really need to save memory then using the same effect for different attacks is one way to do that.

You post sounds like you're trying to squeeze every ounce of memory out of RPG Maker 2 as you can. There's nothing wrong with that but I think that you shouldn't worry about space so much. Making a good game requires you to have a lot of variety. If you use the same unit placement over and over, use the same VFX for many different attacks, and use the same script for every NPC villager, you're game is going to seem pretty bland and uninspired. Just something to think about.

[raithwall]

dont get me wrong, Fuma has a nice professional touch and theres even a few things they did that Im not sure how they did it, probably because finding anything in their files is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

I agree that both methods can be annoying, but long yet few scripts and events has saved me 276,480 memory. 1610 fuma scripts - my 450, 1508 fuma events - my 360. remainders x 80, and x160 = 276,480. Oh yeah minus 26 from the 80 for each apply if in a script branch the actual number is closer to 246,320.

What im talking about is stuff like giving every ability its own direct effect, and directing script. Like in the presets where you have Fire 1, Fire 2, etc, all in different scripts. This is just plain wasteful.

Unit Placement: Fuma had 9+ dungeons (9 unit placement). I have 24 dungeons. If I wanted different enemies in all of them I would need to spend 87,936 memory (3664 per unit placement) Instead I made my own random battle script that only took up 2848. Auto cord teleport when a battle occurs, then sort random event battles in the enter map. That way I can still get the battles to occur on any square. The warping does make entering a battle a little longer, theres actually only a few places I used it. Most of my dungeons draw from a unit placement with 99 units and a world map with specific regions. So I have 2.

Enemies: for normal enemies I use their battle variables as stats so they can level up along with the party. There is a max level thats set with new regions and periods of game progress. Each enemy has their own unique ability, but its really just their battle input and an attack that might cause random status.

VFX: I never use the same effect over. Every ability is completely different, but they combine effects. Extracting the sunbeans, fireworks, auras, weapons, etc allows you to make an endless number of unique abilities. I have 170 VFK, including enemy, and 308 abilities. Every VFX is used an average of 6 times.

For example, a typical preset VFX has 5 different elements. The primary element, sunbeans, fireworks, auras, weapons, etc. If you seperate each element into its own effect you can still combine them in script to make that same preset vfx, but you can also combine them with other effects to make new abilities.

My whole philosophy here is to do your data efficiently so you can splurge memory on the visible part of the game and keep it polished and professional looking. I would classify the best way as the way that gives you the most gain, but you also have time and sanity to consider.


Let me give you a general idea of how much you can pack into one game file when you do things efficiently:

Runewind Saga file 1 statistics:

24 full length different dungeons: some are maps, others are 20 room dungeon maps. 4 Castles, 2 mountains, 5 caverns, desert, snowfields, pirate ship, ocean floor, dark tower, 3 ninja base, more

22 towns on mid to full sized different maps. My world number variable goes up to 81. Also 15 shop maps in dungeon editor. Their object placements are maxed out with lavish details too.

16 party members, each with a 5000-9000 memory dialog script. 4 of which have affection variables and lead to alternate endings. I have used 7 member flags, 7 member variables, and both inputs for every member for something. Each member has different models the player can set based on classes they can have. Average 3-4.

10 random town npc, + 4 universal random talk scripts. 2000-5000 memory each. 8 occur outside, 2 occur inside taverns and shops and are totally random. Oh yeah 12 if you count guards.

7 plot directing scripts, including special npcs and squares that trigger events when walking over them. 5000-10000 memory each.
4 enter map scripts, 2 of which are maxed out at 999 commands, one of them is 22,128 memory because I also used it for directing. So there is no lack of plot dialogue.

15 classes, and each class has its own trainer npc and only certain members can train. There are more memory efficient ways to train classes, but this is how I wanted it to be.

153 World organization
34 dungeon editor
38 Map editor
180 building editor
308 abilities, 355 items
115 enemy, 128 units, 97 enemy actions, 2 unit placement
130 direct effects
78 indirect effects
170 visual effects
360 events. vs FUMA 1508 events, 183,680 memory saved.
450 scripts. vs FUMA 1610 scripts, 92,800 memory saved.
287 Treasures
12 Warp events, average of 4000 memory each.
12 chest events, average of 1000 memory each.

209 character models
249 object models
129 object placement
150 event placement
10 Vehicles
17 different weapon types, 5-10 weapons each.
108 starting at 1, quest progress variable.
Ive used at least half of the 1000 flags and variables.

100 or more placements of my single warp to town / dungeon from the world map, and ocean floor map. Put it in the trash, boom 100.

Other features of note:

Encamping: teleport to camp site from anywhere on the world map and talk to companions here. 3 camp sites: forest, desert, snow. Also a special camp site for every vehicle, like inside the boat, etc.

Ship battle: 2 of the members are vehicles. When you enter these vehicles the party is replaced with that member. The battleship doesnt level, but is very powerful and you can at least get money and drops from enemies on the sea, which is also helpful when doing a low lvl challenge. Later on when the enemies are stronger you can buy upgrades at the vehicle shop. I first encountered this idea in Wild Arms 3.

When fighting at sea there is a rare chance you'll encounter pirates and be teleported to their ship. When pirates board your ship there is no running away. You must work your way to their captain and take him down to continue. Random Treasures found here may be found again up to 10 times when encountering more pirate ships.

Your own Town: when this destroyed town is rebuilt you get to own it, and pick people to live there from around the world who have different things to offer. This idea first appeared in Breath of Fire 2.

Quest log system: remembers quests and loads quest text info.

Cellphone: coordinates between teams in multi team dungeons, and allows you to call and summon party members from anywhere in the world if you have their number.

Arena: 23 units with single monsters that you fight one on one.


Yeah I just went nuts and tried to do everthing. You name it, Ive got it. Throw abiltiies, money attacks, summoning, instant revive, multi team dungeons.

an epic battle that occurs in every room of a 22 room castle and actually destroys the walls and leaves the whole castle destroyed.

Its been 3+ years. The first game file is finished, tested, polished, and already in the hands of some friends. Now im working on the second file, which wont be quite as long. It should go fast because all the system stuff is already done.

Things I did NOT do:

Teleporting: because this would require teleporting vehicles
Jumping: too many problems with jumping.
Images: huge memory, plus I dont have a digital camera anyway.
Traits: I have plenty of tough fights with random behavior, but I might try some traits in the second game file.

[Doan the Nado]

This sounds like a cool game. I would love to see how such a huge game has turned out.

[Dungeon Warden]

WOW! I had no idea you had done something so massive. Why have we not heard of this before?

I'd really like to play this game. Do you have a Max Drive or are you willing to send a Memory card to Doan or me so we can play it? I've heard that you can upload files through the PS3 interface if that's an option for you.

I game this massive and well designed should be shared with the world.

[raithwall]

Thanks guys and especially you Dungeon Warden, your faq dealing with the mistranslated variables saved me many long hours of pulling my hair out.

Yes I will be definitely be looking into uploading it soon, I havent said anything yet, because I want the second part to be done and im not sure how long it will take. Right now I only have a ps2 slim. What do I need to buy and do to upload and download games?

If thats not an option then I guess Ill have to get some memory cards. I dont mind sending a few out or maybe trading some cards for games that others here have designed, but if it gets to be a lot I may have to sell the cards on ebay or something, but only for the price of the card itself. I didnt design the game to make money, but I would love to get it out there as much as possible.

I don't think im ready to get a ps3 just yet, their still pretty expensive and my friend who has the one that isnt compatible to ps2 has been having a lot of problems with corrupted save files. I'll most likely get one when FF13 comes around.


Looking back on it all, I really shouldn't recommend anyone to do what I did unless they have no life and 2 years of working on it all day to spare. I also like to write, but the medium of a game is a lot more fun. I think after this I will retire for a while.

Right now I am taking advantage of things that can only be changed when starting a new game file, like menu format and colors. I am revamping all things visible, so that its different. Redesigning the universal shops found in every town, redesigning most of the monsters and changing their colors.

I've added a new class (Mechanic) that doesn't gain abilities, but whose ranks are required to operate certain items. This will similar to Edgar's tools from FF6. Everyone has their advanced class in the second file so I wanted to do something different. I settled on items because I went to great lengths to ensure all characters with mastered classes would have full pages with 8 abilities on them. Its one of those little insignificant things you do just to keep things looking good. The other base classes were turned into stuff like Dragon, treant, werewolf, etc... they will be different forms for a new character whose capable of shapeshifting.

[Dungeon Warden]

The best way to get your game out to the masses is by using a Max Drive. The software on this memory stick will allow you to move PS2 files to your PC. Then you can upload the file or send it as an email attachment.


The RPG Maker Pavilion is a great place to upload your file. They have a large selection of games for all the RPG Markers. Once you have a Max Drive, you'll be able to download many of the games made by members of this site.

[raithwall]

Thanks for the link DW, it is apparantly the only place on Earth I can find a Max Drive. In other words neither Frys Electronics, Game Stop, Game World, or Ebay had any or even knew what they were. Which is too bad because that site has lousy shipping: $7+ ups ground for a tiny item. Priority would've been cheaper and much faster.

Oh well. So yeah I'll be uploading and announcing pretty soon. Also Im more then half done with the second part now and expect to have it done by the time anyone gets around to finishing the first part, or 2 months, whichever comes first.

Designing the second part has been a lot of fun as it is full of epic directing scenes and resolves everything that was introduced in the first part and I expect this time I will finish with more then 96 memory to spare lol. Thats how close the first part was cutting it. It is literally a testament to how much can be done in a single game file without compromising the quality of the game.

In other words no bad memory methods were employed. Like I could've designed the main castle in one big OV map editor board, but I wanted a 3d dungeon editor castle with 22 interconnecting rooms, so that is what I did. So yes there are things I could've done more efficiently, but it would've been crossing the line and taking away from quality.

DW, I am even considering giving you my password so you can check out my system files. I wish there was a way to give someone read only access so they would not be tempted to start with 99999 gold, or lvl 99, etc. Maybe I could make a seperate file and do something to where it would be unplayable and clearly just a copy of the game file for the purpose of sharing system files.

I am also making a walkthrough faq in word which will either be included or at the very least is available upon request. I'm not going to give away every secret, but I will say if secrets are present, offer boss strategies, and detailed insight on which way to go, what to do next, etc. It really isn't necessary, but I love having the resource available when I play RPGs.

[Dungeon Warden]

I look forward to seeing the game. I'm not the kind of person that would alter someones game unless it was broken. There was a guy a few years ago that never play tested his games and I needed the password just to play the game. It was very broken.

Anyway, you can be sure that I won't do anything to cheat. As long as you have fully play tested the game I won't change anything until I've finished playing through the whole game.

[raithwall]

So yeah everything is done now, well except the second part. Its up on pavillion and rpgmag.

[dailycolbert]

That sounds awesome! One note about the maxe drive: don't use it to delete files off of memory cards. It corrupts the memory cards' data when it tries to do that.