thanks zoradude and nice show of respect. i wish afew others would follow suit. doan,valk, & i had a nice chat on how we felt and cleared some stuff up. really im just waiting for the hype to go down. typing on psp sucks btw othewise more
Superfluous correlations through Pavlovian conditioning cause cerebral captivity for all of us.
Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 6, 2006 23:24:38 GMT -5
William... there are no threats of Nash, there are no "people who need you", and he has certainly not intended to cause others to "suffer at his hands". This is not some romantic story of good and evil where you are the lucky prince to save the day. I'm sorry. This is real life, and there is no easy right and wrong. The Pavilion works one way, and the Domain works another. Comments such as "Valk would stoop that low" are very mean-spirited and are certainly no better than anything that Ryner or anyone else has said to you in the past. In fact, I would warrant that between your posts at the Pavilion over a year ago, your Revolution posts, and this incident, you have spewed forth tenfold the hate back at the Pav as you received yourself. In fact, Valk told me that one of the reasons he doesn't come here is that you will surely yell at him. You have failed to respect my requests to calm down and survey the situation, and you have continued to flame someone who is trying to be rational and apologetic. I hate to say it, Will, but you are making it look more and more as if you are the problem as opposed to Valk, so you better watch the image that you're putting out there of yourself.
Valkysas does have a sense of right and wrong, and I do remember when the Pavilion was nearly as small as this place. He has done a hell of a job resurrecting a dying community and turning it into something that is mostly good. We all know that there are certain issues with the Pavilion: one of them is that Valk did not create it. He did not set the tone for the whole place from the start, and there are members who have been there longer than he has. I can't imagine trying to work in a situation like that, where if you do something that is not liked, people think "Who do you think you are? I've been here longer than you, and you can't come in here and change stuff." We discussed a few issues in a little chat, and it was pointed out that the Pavilion hands out warnings and punishments mostly privately, quite unlike the Domain, where nearly everything is out in the open. It is quite possible that anything that was said in the "Ryner posts" was reprimanded by Valk behind the scenes, in PMs or over IM. I think this may be one problem with the Pavilion's current approach, and we discussed that, but changing a community that large takes time and patience.
I would like to thank everyone who has given level-headed feedback so far, as I feel like we are working towards a more permanent resolution that may serve to bridge the gap between our communities once and for all. It would be very nice to resolve this entire issue before next week, and since most of the involved parties have apologized and forgiven, I await one more person...
Post by realitybites on Sept 6, 2006 23:37:05 GMT -5
Ok I admit what I did was wrong, and immature, I thought I was defending Nash, I coulda done it in a better way, and Valk I say to you, I am sorry for disturbing you and your members. BUT I still think you owe me an apology for releasing my personal info. Other than that I say im sorry.
Thank you. It takes a lot of maturity to own up to your mistakes, especially on a public forum. especially to someone you may not particularly like.
Earlier, I wouldnt have dared apologize for what I did. But you've shown that you are intelligent, and mature. not the average idiot flamer I'm used to dealing with. you were motivated by emotion and friendship. You are not the raving lunatic I thought you were. Once I identified you, I should have known better than to treat you that way. you may not know me, but I am familiar with you, and your work with RPG Maker. I KNEW you deserved better than what I gave you, and yet I let myself get caught up in the moment and feed the flames. I'm sorry.
Wow, nice to see things have worked themselves out. Even I learned a few things after reading all of this. I guess the only thing left is that Will still has some animousity towards the Pavilion. So please dude, just drop it man.
Trust me, I know that Valk listens to his users. After you suggested more moderaters, he did so. I for one had a problem with the anonymous rep system, I imformed Valk about some annoying negitive rep I was getting. So he quickly put a fix to that, by changing the rep system from being anonymous.
Plus I also think you exagerrate some things way out of proportion, its only an online forum. And like whats been sad many times before, if you don't like it, just let it be and let it go.
Post by JimmyPaladin on Sept 7, 2006 0:33:09 GMT -5
I just want to see a real effort. I want to see some real concern. It's been a whole year and nothing has actually changed.
I still don't get why people think I'm taking it to far; I've made it quite publicly clear how obvious Valkysas doesn't care about the people, doesn't want to make an effort to help them, and is quite dishonest and untrustworthy. Did you guys read my first post in this topic?
The people do need to be saved. That's all there is to it. I am their savior.
Just for the record I never FLAMED there. I posted arguments and bickered and even said things that were crued and inappropriate there within, but I never just posted crap to fill up the forum or spam. And it's not like i wasn't in part provoked by members, it's just that there were more of them poking at me which made me the complete culprti which to an extent I was but so were many other members. Also for those who don't recall I wasn't banned for saying the types of people that went to hell. That topic was locked and I got warned and stuff about, but it was in the evolution topic where people just got sick of it and then I got banned. Once again I was the only person fighting for a side yaaaay Creationism...
Of course a lot of what I did say had a crued tone and probably wasn't very nice...but is what they post either?(they not meaning everyone but more specifically) That i was in a bible mood at the time and I hate when a certain side of something gets annihilated because people aren't there to defend the other side. I'll do it to defend sides I don't agree with, and have. Ves was over in training at the time and talking to him on the phone fueled my fire a little, ves really is a good knowledge christian and good guy.
Anyways I do apologize for my past actions and unfortunately the Pavilion is one to hold grudges which is why regardless of what I'd post I'd get called stupid and what not because of it. That bothers me but to an extent its understandable through sociology. And it seems to me the pav has a very strong sociology that every one should be informed about the way they are before going there...perhaps a disclaimer to other members attitudes and courtesy.
I think now it's all up to respect. You don't have to like the place but please respect those members and whatnot even if you don't like it. Cause if your always respectful in the end you'll never truly be the ass, something I've started finding very true. Wonder how many pavilionites will see this...or is it pavians?...
Superfluous correlations through Pavlovian conditioning cause cerebral captivity for all of us.
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." -Gandhi
This is the first thing that comes to mind after reading these posts. I've apparently missed the bulk of the incident, but at this point, I believe I've managed to sort through the rubble enough to form a fairly educated opinion.
It might not be amiss to point out that I am not a registered member of the Pavilion, nor do I harbor any strong feelings either towards or against it. I simply find that this board fits my needs more closely, and for me, that's all there is to it.
Much has already been said on this matter, but one thing that I find has not really been fully addressed is this:
I think that it's entirely too easy to sit in front of a computer screen and point fingers, place blame, and even blatantly insult and degrade. You won't ever come face-to-face with these people, so who cares, right?
Except... there's one key word in that sentiment that is often overlooked.
We're all people. While we may differ drastically in race, religion, age and geographic location, we do have more in common than our affinity for RPG Maker. Behind each nondescript screen name is an actual person, with the same basic human needs, emotions, instincts and rights as you.
So, with that, I offer this humble suggestion:
Before you hit "send" on your next post, think about what you're getting ready to say, and ask yourself if you would say it to the intended recipient's face if they were sitting in the same room with you. How would you feel if you had to defend your comments instantaneously, instead of being afforded the luxury of being able to type a well-thought-out response at your leisure? How would you feel if what you are saying was directed at you? If you're unsure, maybe you should reconsider what you're saying.
We don't all have to be friends. We don't all have to agree with everyone's opinions. It never happens that way in the real world... why should this be any different?
But... a little respect goes a long way. Treat others as you want to be treated. Be the bigger person, if that's what it comes down to. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and ideas... that's what makes us all unique. Even if you don't agree with them, you can still respect them. The way I see it, there are two big differences between fights and intelligent debates, and they are RESPECT, and SELF-RESTRAINT.
THIS GOES FOR BOTH SIDES!
(Nash, I see that you posted a similar sentiment about respect in your last response. I'm happy to see that you feel that way, as I wrote this before I read the most recent responses.)
I'm short on time, so I'm going to have to end this. I hope it is well-received.
EDIT: Fixed a couple of typos... I'm a perfectionist, sorry.
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 10:20:58 GMT -5 by christi
Post by JimmyPaladin on Sept 7, 2006 9:19:32 GMT -5
No, you're missing my point. I wish it weren't true either, Rodak. I really do.
Valkysas just simply doesn't care. It's almost as though he wants the Pavilion to fail by ignoring the cruelty that ensues from his lack of management. My topics, Nash's topic, Damien's topic; they're all proof. My topics are the perfect example though. He knew fully well that what Ryner was doing was wrong, yet did nothing about it. Apparently there's nothing wrong with your actions if your on Valkysas's side, at the Pavilion (that actually has come up before at the Domain, and Doan handled it properly! ). Any of you who frequent the Pavilion already also know how viscious and cruel of a member Ryner is too. He is seriously the worst person on the internet I know; I truly believe he sent Damien the virus and threatened Nash and will threaten me in the near future, etc. This guy is (for lack of better words) the abomination of the devil himself, on the internet. It's clear to just about everyone but Valkysas that he's a major problem and that something needs to be done about him, but Valkysas just doesn't care. That's why I say it seems as though Valkysas wants the Pavilion to fail; it's so painfully obvious that something needs to be done yet he does nothing! Oh well, moving on.
So 'savior's an exaggeration, fine. The truth is that the suffering has gone on long enough and it has to stop (like christi said, these are people), and it seems as though I'm the only one who can and will stop it. Thus, I do think of myself as the savior. A lot of people have been hurt by Valk and his posse, and a lot more will if I don't save them. Most have just gone unnoticed because they've been hurt away from the RPG Maker series by the cruelty of him and his posse. I'm not going to ignore or forget them! I'm going to save them! They do need my saving. I know because I've felt Valk and his posse's wrath, and it's easily enough to hurt away a new RPGM user.
And Goddammit! Stop being in denial everyone! Being in denial will only lead to more suffering! I showed you exactly how evil and horrible Valkysas is; he needs to be overthrown in order for the people to be safe/protected! Don't you see that?! Read through my first post in this topic again if you don't! It's perfect/exact proof of his lack of concern for the people and what happens to them! Please people! We can't allow his tyranny and anarchy to continue to hurt people! At least, I don't want to; do you?
And yes, I'm very sorry that using words like hurt, pain, and suffering in regards to this is degrading to people that are truly suffering, Doan; but nonetheless, why shouldn't I help people when I can, y'know? Please don't hold me back any more; I'll be sure not to flame. I know you've just been looking out for my safety and all, but I'm ready to sacrifice myself for the greater good. I want to do so. It may be partly vengeance-driven, but whatever, good will still come of it, and that's more important in my opinion. The people will be saved. Even if they don't need, or aren't aware that they're being saved, or are being saved partially for the wrong reason, it's still a good thing.
Again, I am a member of the Domain, but I speak on behalf of myself.
Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 7, 2006 12:57:03 GMT -5
Will, you are the one that is in denial. Three or four bad threads out of thousands is hardly "proof" of bad management. Ryner is not the reincarncation of the devil... he is a person on the other end of a computer who is more blunt than you like. You are acting like a 10 year old, even now, and it is really beginning to wear thin on me and everyone else. The reason that we have not come down on you as we normally should is because I have felt like it would hurt you too much, but I'm tired of making excuses for you. In my eyes, Will, you are in the wrong here. You are the only one continuing an issue that is all but resolved.
This was about Nash's post, Reality's flames, and Valk's comments about the Domain. All involved parties have apologized and forgiven, and all you are doing is hampering progress. Your tunnel vision is really frustrating everyone. You are seeing things the way that you wish them to be instead of the way they are. Valk does realize that some people are probably receiving harsher criticism than they can deal with (ahem!), and he has assured me that he is working on the situation.
I would like to state again that I think you have done more hating than the Pavilion ever did to you. You have turned yourself into the bad guy, and that is sad.
If you say anything else remotely hateful in this topic, it will be deleted. I've had enough.
Post by JimmyPaladin on Sept 10, 2006 9:06:41 GMT -5
I've said everything I've wanted to say. Basically, I'm unhappy with how things were run in the past, and hopefully things are capable of changing at the Pavilion. Hopefully sometime soon Valkysas will make a new addition to the Pavilion's front page reflecting the updates he's made in this topic and from what I've heard AIM chats between Doan, Nash, and Damien so that the Pavilion public has a better idea of everything that has happened since the last update of the Pavilion's front page.
Valkysas: please make note of this!!! I am no longer associated with the Domain in any way, shape, or form. I've talked to Doan a bunch and asked him to ban my accounts but he refused to because " have been a very valuable member of this community, in offering game advice, being friends with everyone, and always testing people's games for them" and "[he hates] to see [me] go, [he really does]." Nonetheless, I'm leaving voluntarily to try to protect the Domain from undeserved harm! I would really, really appreciate it if you made an effor fort me to recieve all the blame for this since Doan and Ves are not responsible for any of this, as I'm sure Doan, Ves, and all of the Domain would! Doan and Ves have actually been restraining me a ton; I've had to get every message of mine revised by them via PMs over and over until it was just barely acceptable (usually like 5 times until it was okay, often times more) before posting it publicly! I just have a few more posts to make (such as a final one to The Final Rune telling him to read this post) and PMs to send to people, then I'm done!
A ton happened in real life as this Pavilion ordeal was happening in fake life, and it seriously looked like I was going to have a new medical problem that was going to give me insane physical pain for the rest of my life, which also in turn made me unable to sleep and gave me countless panic attacks. If that turned out to be the case, there was no doubt in my mind I was going to kill myself. This was why I didn't care about what I was doing here, and is also what has motivated me to leave the internet and try to get going with my real life as well as well as some other things; I don't want to become in denial and say I'm not throwing away my life by replacing it with a fake internet life when indeed I would be like I've seen so many other countless people do. It literally was about a 50:50 chance, and hopefully you people get something out of it. Second worst time period of my life.
However, this last Tuesday I learned otherwise!!!
The smartest, wisest, kindest, best, doctor I've ever seen before (I've seen him once before this too) named Dr. Rederich, a neurologist (southern California if you ever need it), knew what the problem was right away when I finally got an appointment and told me the pain was going to wain and eventually be gone in two to three weeks (from then). I believe him, and I believe him now more than then because it's better now than it was yesterday, and better yesterday than it was the day before, and better today than it was two weeks ago, etc.
That's the short version. I've been in terrible pain (not talking about the CFS/CFIDS or its resultant emotional pain now) the last 5 months, but it's finally coming to an end!!!
It's a Sinusitis message board. In short, it was a chronic bacterial infection in my sphenoid sinus that was discovered from an MRI scan ordered by Dr. Rederich, the neurologist; that was then fixed by a sphenoidectomy surgery by an ENT, but the sphenoid is right near the center of the brain and he hit some nerves in my brain on the left side during the surgery.
Also, Doan's told me something you said about me that changed my opinion about you greatly, Valkysas. Just promise me you won't let Ryner and people like that hurt people any more, okay? That's all I ever wanted.
Everyone else and Doan, I'm sorry I'm doing this, but I want to and as you can see it's actually a good thing. I want everyone to know that you've all been incredibly fantastic to me, and I really, really do appreciate literally everything you've done for me!!! I'll be PMing you guys one by one with personal goodbyes, thank yous, etc.. I'll be visiting my tripod site every once in a while to make sure it doesn't get deleted so that the DBS Guide doesn't get deleted, for you guys, and I'll be emailing you the Microsoft Word file of the DBS Guide too, Doan, since I'm now completely certain I'll never finish it now (I've been pretty certain of it for a while now ) Good luck with everything guys!!!
I'd also like to apologize to Smurf, Neo, quatchk, tigger, and especially millivanill!!!!!!!!! Hopefully, where ever they are, they see this and know that I'm doing this for them. There's absolutely no excuse for what I did to you in the past, but hopefully I can make up for it now by changing the future and preventing those same mistakes from happeneing again. No one figured it out, but that's my true motive: extreme guilt and knowing what it's like to suffer from a guy like Ryner/the old me of the Domain.
So, I guess it's time to go. Farewell everybody! Good luck with everything!!! Poop out!
Post by realitybites on Sept 10, 2006 9:46:54 GMT -5
WIll, I was glad to know ya man, take care and hope you get better, ive always loved your work, you have been a valuable asset to this community. I hope for you to make the best out of your life while you can. Well goodbye Will, You are a great guy.
Post by Doan the Nado on Sept 10, 2006 11:38:49 GMT -5
Will, I've pretty much told you everything that I want to via PM (as you quoted in your post). I'm glad that this whole situation is now fully resolved, but I'm sad to see you leave the Domain. Hopefully you'll pop back in from time to time and let us know how you're doing. I, too, hope the pain gets better for you, and that all of life's ventures treat you well. Best of luck to you!
Post by The Smurf on Sept 10, 2006 13:11:14 GMT -5
I'd also like to apologize to Smurf, Neo, quatchk, tigger, and especially millivanill!!!!!!!!! Hopefully, where ever they are, they see this and know that I'm doing this for them. There's absolutely no excuse for what I did to you in the past, but hopefully I can make up for it now by changing the future and preventing those same mistakes from happeneing again.
what did you do to me in the past? all i can remember is your enthusiasm for my game making.
anyway, i'm sorry to see you go, will. i'm sure there's not much i can say to stop you, so all i'll say is good luck to you.
Black all around me, even the water. The water’s not really black, of course. Reflection from the sky. Water’s like a mirror sometimes. Lets you see your face in it, anyway. Reflecting the night’s face, then, isn’t it? Does the night have a face? It must. Otherwise the water couldn’t reflect it.
I am made from the dust of the stars and the oceans flow in my veins
Hey, I know maybe I shouldnt even be commenting on this(Having been away from the boards for a few months (and being virtually unknown, even here at doans which is IMO the best online community about ANYTHING Iv'e ever been a part of)) But as this is a community which I care about, I'm weighing In. I read the locked thread "Stupid ass cross site bickering" and even tho I appreciate the existence of the pav(they are, I think the first people to swap RPGM games using Dex/Max-drives online, and they are the way I found this community)
I found Valks comments (I am paraphrasing but I do not intend to distort Valks meaning, or nit pick about individual little "bits" of his post, but rather his overall statement) That all bets were off, and that he would fight flamers or misbehaving members by all means nessecary, to be not only Irresponsible, but to be a complete misunderstanding of the responsibilities of an administrator. I do not know everything which happened, But I did read the store comic thread at the pav, and I'm rather sad to say that I was not suprised-No nash I am not dissing your strips- rather I am simply suggesting that I've seen this kind of thing all to often on boards with a larger community. that Is one of the reasons I was so glad to find the domain! I was made to feel welcome here. And I have learned so much about rpgm2 here that I wouldnt have IMO, found out about at the more impersonable (and intimidating) pavillion.
Im GLAD the pav exists, and now that im not a complete noob I might get some high qualtity use out of that site. but THIS is my rpgm home
soo.. umm... THANX
I FINNALY GOT A HOME COMPUTER, so now, I"m JUST stupid.