How to handle save points.

[KingSpoom]

I had always assumed that it would come naturally to place save points at the right spots in games. However, different people like different saving schemes. Let me start by explaining the choices.

Option 1 (Anytime): This means that the game can be saved anytime while not in a battle. You go to the menu, select save, and save.

Option 2 (Often): In addition to saving while outside, save points are offered at several locations inside dungeons. Either dungeons are specifically designed to repass the same point after accomplishing a task (I think Magus' Castle in chrono trigger did this) or several points are placed after 15 minutes of playtime or boss battles.

Option 3 (Within Reason): Also in addition to saving while outside, saves are offered right before boss battles and every extremely lengthy period of time. This option is just slightly less giving than option 2 and slightly more giving than option 4.

Option 4 (Only when necessary): Saves are offered outside and once per dungeon (usually before boss). You might find yourself doing lengthy tasks before a save is offered, and temporarily walking outside to save your progress.

Option 5 (Never inside dungeons): This reminds me of Final Fantasy 1. I don't remember any saves being inside a dungeon. Once you enter, the only way to save is to walk back out.

Option 6 (Other): Pick this option if you want to declare special rules, such as "saves should be deleted upon selecting them to use" or "saves should be earned by battling X number of times" or perhaps "players should spend resources to save (like ehrgeiz)"... maybe you even hate allowing to save outside anywhere.

Now that that is done... I personally fall into the middle again, option 3. Saving outside is a given for me, as you are often outside and it is easy to control. Saving in dungeons really depends upon the dungeon design. Players shouldn't be forced to do any more than 1 easy task to make it back to the boss from a save. I also think that anything that takes a really long time should be allowed to save.

The reason for this is simple. Players can always opt out of taking a save to make the game harder. I do hope my game is a little more balanced in terms of battling. You shouldn't be healthy one minute and taking a dirt nap the next. I'd rather give players the time to realize they need to use their elixers and whatnot. I know people don't like to use them often, but I want to make them worth more than other games. In a game like FF3/6j, you could use cure 3/4 and be mighty effective. Not only could you heal yourself, but the whole team. I thought this weakened the value of elixers, but that is another topic entirely.

I could never understand why some games allowed players to cheat with multiple saves, or by saving after each step they take. I think it takes the game design out of the hands of the developer, and puts it in the hands of the player. Although I don't think I would ever resort to it, I wouldn't be opposed to a system that doesn't allow more than one save from the same game to be used. Of course, there is the whole "save on a memory card and then copy it", but those people are just too desperate to manipulate the system to care for.

So, how about it. How long should saves be seperated out in RPGs?

[Kumo Shinagi]

I choose other.

I like the player to be able to save anytime, just not when they're about to go to a boss though.

[Deleted]

I'm also #3, and it seems we feel pretty similarly on this issue.
I'm having saves on the world map (from the menu), churches in cities (or something like that), (probably) entrances to dungeons, before bosses, and if the dungeon's long enough I'd put more in (but usually save at the start and end (before boss) is sufficient).

I hadn't thought about the multiple save thing as much. I do agree with you on what you've mentioned, but the counter-arguments would be...

back up files are nice to have just in case (me and my brother did this during California's rolling blackouts a few years ago)
some games are notably difficult and don't offer any way of returning, where for a lot of people somehow returning and strengthening is the only way to win (mainly thinking of Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together here)

It's tough to say what's the right thing to do though, but I'll bet most people'd mostly only use multiple saves for back-up reasons. I've always found it most fun to just play through a game without trying to get everything and live with my decisions, but who knows.

[Aaron]

I was going to have anytime in my game originally, but I decided to have save points within reason instead. I think having in-game saving makes a game entirely too easy if saving refills the party's HP and MP. If it doesn't, that's a different story.

Save points should be applied when you, the designer, feels like there should be one and, of course, after every lengthy task. That's just my opinion though.

[NASH7777]

I just adjusted the saving in my game.

Can save/make checkpoint anywhere but dungeons
Get a special spot before bosses to make save/checkpoint

Difference between save and checkpoint

since I'm using a CBS this works well, but otherwise it takes away your "escape".
The checkpoint is basically you "escape" spot so when you get game-over you can start from there, it also makes it quicker since saving takes so long.

[vespuleth]

before i answer, i want to address the issue of multiple saves. im going to start by saying that if you arent an avid defender of multiple saves, you were probably never a fan of the tomb raider games, other then looking up naughty pics of her on the net. those games are hard. and when you screw up, you screw up. you pick up items, and may not use them for a very long time. but if you miss them, you miss them. story over. you cant go back. i beat at least three levels on tomb raider 4 before i needed Psiodons (i think) pitchfork thing (forgot real name) and just plain didnt have it. also, there were no easy tasks in those games. so you saved alot, you saved often, because you didnt know if the health you lost to achieve your goal was a good compromise, or if you would need it just around the next corner. so yeah, i am a fan of multiple saves. and when people ask me. tomb raider is the answer. and like will said, tactics ogre was hard too. also, w/ some rpgs, i like to make a file, after all the nonsense, or at a choice point in the game (TO) and come back to it later, and choose the other path. that way i experience every part of the game, but dont have to do everything over again.

now that that rant is over, im going to say that i will most likely allow multiple saves. at some point, i would like to make a game that rivals tomb raider in challenge, and not battle wise, but movement/puzzle wise. as of now, my game is more tactical based, so i will still allow for multiple saves.

im mainly doing event based saves. i dont know if im allowing saves on the world at all. i really want the player to feel like they deserve a save point when then they get one, or they are about to go through some really hard stuff. of course, after all hard stuff, or an intensely long play time a save point will be available. rant rant rant...

so a mix of six, three and four? boy am i indecisive...

[BloodKnight]

Within reason.

I'm not a fan of allowing the player to save anytime, because it takes away the tension you have when you don't know what's around the corner, and the fact that you could lose everything if you didn't prepare. If they're placed at a reasonable distance and the player is at least allowed to go back to previous ones(or even better, have a newly opened shortcut back to save point), then I'm all for reasonably placed saves.

[KingSpoom]

I wasn't particularly a fan of tomb raider games, but it had nothing to do with the saves. The reason they needed to have a save system like that was because the player had a great chance to fail a lot. I've watched other people play it... they save before they jumped to a latter, saved once they got up there, saved after they killed some monsters (as long as they didn't take a lot of damage)... The reason you save so much is because it's an action game that walks a fine line between "you can make it" and "game over". The save system is just a lack of an easier control system/game. For this poll, I was just referring to rpgs. I consider tomb raider action/adventure, as far as I understand it.

On a side note, I'm all for using a secondary save for backup purposes. I just never liked how people would save before every major decision and pick every option to see what would give them the best result. If you messed up and made a poor choice, you should have to live with it... within reason of course. There shouldn't be options that end with ridiculous results either.

[vespuleth]

i think all of what you said about tomb raider is what makes it such an awesome series.

anyways, some people are doing action rpgs, and may have some difficult events in it. and the most recent tomb raider starts to venture into the realm of the rpg. but anyways, all that aside, i agree that the reason for being able to save often in tomb raider is because the game always leans toward the 'near impossible'. i wasnt commenting on the fact that you could save often, but the reason for multiple saves.

blah blah blah....

to make some statements that actually contribute to the thread (im sorry about the above rant... i like tomb raider ) saves are really about building the atmosphere. or they should be. i think saves should be before any event that will almost definitely kill the player, or events that the player is most likely going to have to try a few times. for the other stuff, putting a save point every 3 or 4 challenges is a good option, or allowing the player to carry items that allow them to save (this would mean you would have to fit how saving worked inside of your gaming world). also, i think every 45 minutes to an hour, regardless of whats happened, a save should be available. and anytime you enter a new area (town or dungeon) you should be able to save either right before or right after you venture into it. and thats my plan.

[Dungeon Warden]

I agree with the middle of the road, save in many places, within reason approach. No one whats to have to repeat a hard task to get through a game and so saves should be avaliable as needed. Some good game design goes a long way to making a task easier as well. For example, opening up passages so that players can get back to where they left off if they decide they need to leave the area and go back to town and resupply.

Ultimately, where saves are and how many depends on how difficult the game is. Play testing can go a long way in determining there saves are needed.

[Doan the Nado]

I have no real definitive answer here. I actually liked the feel that FF1 had with only saving outside. It made the dungeons feel so much more real knowing that you would die and would have to start the dungeon from the start. It added some annoyance, but looking at it from a game context, the heroes have died and so will the world now, so for me to just have to start a dungeon over isn't a huge deal. Of course, there weren't really many hard puzzles in FF1.

On the flipside, I liked LoZ:ALttP, where you could save anywhere. The catch was that there were only a few places you could start from after saving: you could either save and continue, or save and quit and start from a few preset points. For some games, this idea could work well.

One thing I didn't like occurred in FFX. There were save points everywhere, and they restored everything. This made the game way too easy... I like feeling like I really accomplish something when I beat a game. A game like FFX, anyone could pick that up and beat it without too much effort, and it takes a little bit of the special feeling out of beating the game.

I guess it depends on your game style. In my opinion, as long as the net result seems realistic in the context of your game, and there is a good level of difficulty, it should be just fine. I suggest setting the save points in such a way that this is achieved.

[Draygone]

I usually would create a second save if the scene I was just at was so cool that I might want to have it in case I'd want to see it again. Or in the case of Golden Sun (where after the credits, you create a save that can't be used until the next game), right before the final battle. Sometimes I might reset and use the last save if I wanted to see what would've happened if I had made the other choice, instead of having to go through the whole game again to find out. Or if I missed my chance at catching the one-time only Legendary Pokemon (actually, I think Nintendo actually encouraged you to do that in their guides). Let me tell you though, in games like Paper Mario 2, where you can only save in the file you chose at the start, well, that kinda sucked not being able to do things like fight the final boss of Chapter 3 or watch the cannon scene over again. Which reminds me, why don't games have an option where you can watch old scenes over again or allow you to listen to music previously heard? They can't take up too much memory.

Anyway, as for when you can save, I say anytime on the world map (rarely would there be an instance when saving on the world map wouldn't be a good idea). One in a town, especially if you can't save on the world map or if there isn't one, more in the town in the town has a dungeon underneath like Figaro in Final Fantasy 6 or actually is a dungeon (and is big enough). In dungeons, near the start (if no saving in world map). The rest of the dungeon would depend on size and shape. Maybe one in the middle, especially right before or right after a tough puzzle. And one close to a boss fight, though not too close; gotta have some penalty for dying, so you might as well have the player do a little work to get back to the boss. Also, saves should be after important events or after or in the middle of really long story sequences (like at the end of a disk/memory card or in a sequence like Cloud's Flashback in FF7).

Or, one could have save anywhere, but when the file is loaded the player is put back in the beginning of the dungeon, like in pretty much every Zelda game.

Oh yeah, and if battles aren't random, saves can be spread furthur apart, being used only in certain special cases like bosses or long scenes, or if puzzles reset (DON'T EVER DO THAT) or have to be undone to head back, or if the last save is a long walk away regardless of there being no random battles.