some idea fragments

[qachyk]

They're currently only fragments because I've got a few conflicting ideas and I'm still learning the system itself, which will tend to influence what I'm going to try for.

One thing I'd really like to do is rip off Shadow Hearts have a protagonist with an uncontrollable power that they need to learn to control. This could be a quest in and of itself, or part of a larger story. This sequence would start with the time directly after losing control of that power caused the death of someone the protagonist cared for, though the exact mechanics of how I present that I haven't quite decided yet. Probably something like waking up on the floor and seeing the dead body across the room and having a flashback of the loss of control, though.

I'd also like to include a scene -- probably related to the above, but I can think of multiple ways to use this -- in which one has to walk through an area where people are sunk into the ground with only their heads showing, sort of a Hell imagery. Probably one of those would be either an in-game guide/sage of some sort or a boss battle. BTW, I've already played with how this could look and it's pretty cool.

I do plan on doing something dark in general, although I'm going to throw in comedic relief.

I've also got a lot of very vague intentions, like the use of betrayal, the "wait, I thought I was doing x, but now it turns out the story's about y" that Square does so well, the inclusion of some sort of religious, spiritual, or philosophical cultural clash, etc. But I'm still working on the context of those things.

Once I have a better handle on the system and what I'm personally capable of, I'll be able to solidify this stuff better.

[Deleted]

"One thing I'd really like to do is rip off Shadow Hearts have a protagonist with an uncontrollable power that they need to learn to control. This could be a quest in and of itself, or part of a larger story. This sequence would start with the time directly after losing control of that power caused the death of someone the protagonist cared for, though the exact mechanics of how I present that I haven't quite decided yet. Probably something like waking up on the floor and seeing the dead body across the room and having a flashback of the loss of control, though."

Well, this has also been done (exactly as you said) in Legaia 2, and probably others I am not familiar with. It's not good to start a game with blatantly stealing something from another game. If you make it different enough to where people can't tell, then it'd work out fine. After all, everything we "create" comes from other knowledge we already know, and is in turn just shuffling around ideas. However, combining ideas from various sources, altering them a lot from other ideas from other sources, then using ideas from your own life (a unique source) will result in something that seems different. Uniqueness is, for everyone, one of the most important things about any form of entertainment. This doesn't mean to say it has to be something that's never been done before, but definitely at least hasn't been done to death before.

The other notable issue to be concerned with this is obvious: it's a very common and old cliche to give the main character some special power, or special origin, or special destiny, etc. As before, if it's different enough it'll be fine, however, a cliche as old, common, and used as this one has already been taken so many different directions that there's little left that could be done with it (at least compared to other ideas).

Having strange flashbacks of mysterious things innitiated by doing/seeing certain things and people is also very old and cliched. Examples I know of are: FF7 (most well-known rpg out there I remind you), FF8, FFX, FF6, FF5, Shadow Hearts (apparantly), Legaia 2, Suikoden; just to name a few.

"I do plan on doing something dark in general, although I'm going to throw in comedic relief."

First, I'd recommend, since you've clearly not developed your ideas any yet, not limiting yourself to creating a certain type of game ("dark"). Whenever you create anything, whether it is music, video games, board games, literature, you'll never know how it will end up being, plus, chances are it won't be the way you first thought it would end up. So, since you haven't the slightest clue what your game is about (besides a few random, jumbled, stolen ideas), you should definitely not decided on anything much.

Second, comic relief can be good and bad. If (this happens in a lot of Shakespeare I'll be it even) some random, stupid character just starts blabbing about nothing important, related, or even relevant to the game/story, it's rather detrimental to the game/story's flow, and will annoy the player/viewer because it's just stupid and not funny. "Throwing in comic relief" or anything else is never the right way to go about doing anything. It must be relevant to what else is going on, non-detrimental to the flow of the game/story, funny and not just stupid, and placed properly.

"I've also got a lot of very vague intentions, like the use of betrayal, the "wait, I thought I was doing x, but now it turns out the story's about y" that Square does so well"

First of all, Square does not always do this well. FF7 and FF8 both involved a part in which "Badguy is actually being controlled by Other Badguy that we've never met before." This is one of the most horrible ways to do anything in a game, and should not be considered as "well." (note that I haven't finished FFX-2 completely, but I'm willing to bet this happens there too).

From all of what you typed, it seems as though your rpg gaming experiences only comprise of Final Fantasy's and other Square games. I highly recommend you go play more rpgs so that you get more different perspectives and something to actually compare to a Final Fantasy besides another Final Fantasy. I'm not saying all the Final Fantasy's are bad, but there is a lot more out there and they are not the undoubtably best, and often times are in fact a good example of what not to do (what I said above).

I know however that these are just the beginnings of your ideas, and still yet to be seen what you can do with them (as thelastbigfall always said).

[qachyk]

Well, I realize that I haven't posted an introductory note, so here's some stuff you probably should know:

I've been tabletop RPG playing since 1980.

I've been computer RPG playing since the mid-80s. My first computer RPGs were the Ultima and Bard's Tale series. Before that, there was Temple of Apshai, which was more an adventure than an RPG, but in a similar vein.

Most of my console RPGs are by Square, yes. I wouldn't own a PS2 if they hadn't released FF8 and Parasite Eve, the two games that got me to buy a console system. And yes, I consider the Final Fantasy series to be exemplary, if not perfect, RPGs.

And, oh yeah, I write fiction, though I grant I've not yet been published. I do, however, have a small stack of encouraging rejection letters for my short stories. I also have written three novels, the first of which is languishing in the world of the slush pile and the second of which I'm currently editing for a similar fate.

Trust me when I say I'm well aware that one does not lift ideas directly from other games. The 'rip off Shadow Hearts' thing was a joke, a wry acknowledgement that any idea I posit at this stage is going to sound just like at least one currently existing game.

You see, there is absolutely no idea I could use that hasn't been used before. The idea is in how I present it, how I combine it with other things, how I handle the details.

As far as specifically that scene goes, I'm not talking about 'character wakes up and has strange flashbacks for the entire game about what he did'. I'm talking about 'character wakes up, and seeing the dead body brings back everything he did, thus spurring him to figure out what to do next'. Think of it as a really bad hangover. Even that's vague until I write the precise scene.

As far as deciding on 'dark' goes, you see that as limiting, whereas I see it as the first branch in a tree. Tone has a lot to do with character and plot design. Sometimes they all come together, sometimes one determines another. In this case, I have decided I'd rather do a game with a lot of dark overtones, meaning no cutesy (inasmuch as I have a choice with super-deformed) characters, people with troubled pasts, the possible use of anti-heroes, darker or muted colours in terms of design, a strong possibility of having to make decisions between two non-ideal outcomes, even different music choices. Throwing in comedic relief probably means snappy one-liners, joking in the face of death, sort of Buffy-esque humor. This is something I do a lot of in my fiction.

[Dungeon Warden]

Hey, a kinderd spirit!

I too started with Ultima and Bards tale. Ah, Temple of Apshai, I forgot all about that game. Limited in an RPG sense, but still fun. Did you play Phantasie as well. That was another of my favorite games from that era.

I'm also a writer. Three of my short stories were published. One novel is in serious need of editing, but is otherwise finished. I started a new novel, which I have written about three chapters so far.

I know what you mean about tone. You need to set tone in order to create characters and maps (towns, interiors, etc.) I like dark stuff if it's done well, although I'm better at writing for young readers.

Welcome to the board. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[vespuleth]

tone isnt ideal, its a necessity. i really am not going to comment on this (as in your idea) because id like to see more then just the brainstorm. im going to hold my thoughts until we get some detailed idea of what your game is. hope thats ok.

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and yay for people who have common interests. i have tabletopped (alternaty, dnd, adnd 2.0 & 3, call of cathulu, shadowrun). couldnt ever get into white wolf.

i also write (although you probably wouldnt guess it from my presence here on the boards) both short stories and poetry. but theres a whole thread on that in the spam forum, so i wont bore you here.

[Doan the Nado]

Yeah, I agree with the tone comments: deciding your tone early on in creation will save a lot of editing later. From a storywriting perspective, every sentence should be considered, especially in a short story: "Does this sentence contribute to the overall theme, plot, or tone? Is it consistent with everything else I've written?" I can easily see how such a writing method could carry over successfully to RPG making.

As for the fragments, they sound interesting. They could certainly make for a good game or game element (the hands sound pretty creepy), but it all depends on how it's developed. Good luck!

[qachyk]

The central idea of the guy with the uncontrollable power seems to have mutated slightly. I haven't gotten all the details worked out by any means, but it looks like he's going to be one of a number (where 'a number' means at least 3 but possibly more) of people who have been affected by the proximity of a fragment of a lost artefact where they grew up. This leads to a fairly obviously early storyline of finding the fragments and containing them, but I'm trying to keep it from turning into a stereotypical magic McGuffin hunt. I think I also may make it possible to start with either one of two characters (the other reverting to later-playable-character status), with different reasons to go on the McGuffin hunt portion of the game.

The artefact the fragments are from actually would be beneficial to the world if reassembled; it's only the fragments acting alone that result in problems. I've got some of the how and why it became broken and scattered worked out; what I'm working on now is justifying why it wasn't immediately sought out and re-assembled, though given the effects of the fragments I think I have the basis of that worked out.

The story will not end with the reassembly of the artefact. And, you will probably all be grateful to hear that there will be no instance where, at the last moment before restoring the artefact, a villain swoops in, steals it, and uses it to try to conquer the world. Once it is restored, it will go back to doing its job correctly.

I do have the basics of what happens after worked out but not the details. I won't say what yet because I want you people to play this game, and I don't want to spoil all of it!

Of course, I may wake up a few days from now, look at what I've worked out, and decide it stinks, but so far I'm reasonably happy with the bones of it. Fleshing it out is the harder bit.

Very unfortunately, inasmuch as I love the hell imagery, I have not yet figured out how to include it properly. Maybe another game, maybe it'll fit in later as I script things out.

In the meantime, while I'm working through that, I'm also putting together a parody game to practice with all the elements of scripting. Going through and identifying RPG clichés has made me realize I could have a lot of fun with ramping them up and aping them. That one may just be for my own enjoyment and practice, though.

[qachyk]

PS: If you're wondering at all about mechanics, all I can say is that I'm going to use the DBS but I ripped out the preset abilities and items. The details, while I am working on them, have not yet been sufficiently worked out to try to explain, especially since in some cases I have ideas that I'm not sure I know how to code.

[Deleted]

I like the idea of several main characters, and that usually works out pretty well. One simple technique to avoid the 'going and getting all the pieces' thing is to through the story somehow make the player only have to go and get one: by doing this you turn a long remedial task of going here, here, and here and getting this, this, and this into one decently fun dungeon that's a part of the story. It sounds like what you could do is have 3+ main characters and each of their first tasks be (they don't meet) to go to each (1 piece to 1 main character), then the story could go off from there, with them meeting or not. It does sound like a bad way to start off the game (with a very well-known and annoying cliche), so I'd say you should work around it somehow. I'd say just cut that part of the story out completely - you'll get better ideas with time and later be glad you cut it. Also, it's good to do a practice game to learn how to use RPGM2, but I'd say quit it once you know how to do most things and start your main game - because you don't want to spend 100+ hours making lots of good stuff and have it go towards some quickly thrown together lame game (I did this too, but quit pretty quickly).

Another thing you could do is (like what Ves says) throw the player into the action: have them traverse this actionous dungeon (I'd say with numerous npc's and other characters - like your mercenaries or soldiers or something, looking for treasure or carrying out orders, whatever) not knowing why you're going in there besides it's the king's orders or to get treasures, then afterwards explain why you did (which is what you said).

[Doan the Nado]

I will take the opposite viewpoint, and say that I actually like the "cliche start" to the game. Looking for fragments of an object is common and familiar, but the way you have done it, it is a little bit different from the norm. You have implied that there is stuff after that, so it would be nice as a player to be like, "ahh, a dumb, cliche object search, although it does have an interesting twist," and then just when you think you've completed the search and completed the game, there is a whole lot more. I definitely think this could work.

Also, if you do decide to make the parody game, it would be interesting just to see what you do. I mean, you said it would be just for yourself, but I'd like to see what you come up with.

[vespuleth]

hmmm... maybe ill walk the middle ground? (by compromising all the situations into one meld?)starting the game from a viewpoint other then the main characters would be fun, but i dont think itd contribute to the story. also, having some authority figure seeking out the artifact would also add to the trite storyline. however, i stand by the fact that fetchquests arent a good way to start a game, due to the fact that they either force the player to meander through plot (they cannot directly achieve their goal) or they are not given a direct goal (why do they want the artifact?).

so some questions that need to be asked are:

do(es) the main character(s) know what causes their condition?

how accurately (do they know that some strange item causes it, or that it is part of an artifact)?

some thoughts: if they know that it is part of an artifact, then why doesnt anyone else? and if others do know (the location of the artifact pieces are common) why havent they been located and combined? furthermore, if the artifact has been there for any period of time at all, are there other people (perhaps older) that have the same condition?

forgive me, at this point, the closest parallel i can draw on the artifact and its effects are radiation poison, so thats where some of this comes from.

anyways, i digress...

why does the character actually want to get rid of the object? does he wish to find the full object?

... ill continue this later...

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my plot suggestion:

play the devils advocate. my suggestion would actually be that the main character is one of few people not affected by the artifact piece, and as such, he is chosen to go and remove it and prevent harmful affects on future generations. so your character would be normal, but because of it, he would be unique.

character two is an affected person that has been told the artifact will 'cleanse' them, and so they quest to find it.

i would maybe suggest throwing in some conflicted interests, like that character one wants to destroy the artifact piece, while character one wants to keep it. this will develop a good co protagonist/antagonist relationship (they could either work together, or become enemies, leaving the player guessing which will actually happen) and allow you to expose the player to both the benefits of the afflicted and the norm. and the selfishly motivated, and the (unwilling???) servant.

hope thats helped.

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now that that long spill is done, id say that the 'bones' of it are good. artifact shards cause diverse effects (affects?) and people are trying to find them. id say to play motivations very well in this game, and characterize well, and regardless of how cliche the plot seems, it will probably be good. but at the same time, id say carefully consider why it is necessary to start w/ a fetch quest, esspecially if you are not giving the reason for wanting the artifact together. another suggestion is to have the artifact assembly play second to some overlying ... plot detail, like the artifact shards themselves. that way, its not the main focus of the early game, but just something the player ends up doing as they go.

hope that helps, and sorry for the ... long boring post.

[qachyk]

vespuleth said:

do(es) the main character(s) know what causes their condition?

how accurately (do they know that some strange item causes it, or that it is part of an artifact)?

The characters do not know in the beginning what the problem is. Tracking down the source of the problem precedes getting the item and figuring out what to do with it.

I actually don't plan to play out the entire sequence of discovery for every playable character, but I do want to do at least two instances of it to some degree, the first one being the more involved one. I haven't quite figured out how I want to handle the meeting of characters, so it may be two individual quests of two different playable characters, or one single-character quest leading to a two-character one. After that I'll probably skip forward a bit.

furthermore, if the artifact has been there for any period of time at all, are there other people (perhaps older) that have the same condition?

Yeah, I stopped and asked myself that, too.

In the first character's case, the answer is he's actually not the only person affected. There are also some other things going on, including something involving this comment:

forgive me, at this point, the closest parallel i can draw on the artifact and its effects are radiation poison, so thats where some of this comes from.

That's actually the same comparison I drew when chatting with a friend about this, although it ends up more of a link between the character and the artefact, that is, he's still being influenced in part by it even from afar. But if the artefact piece were come into contact with again under similar circumstances, it'd lead to the same problem, which does give the more civic-minded of the characters reason to do something about it.

why does the character actually want to get rid of the object?

To start with? Well, his uncontrolled powers cause him to kill someone, so he's searching for a way to control his powers. He doesn't know what's causing it; it's not until he starts investigating his childhood that he comes to find out about the artefact taint.

my suggestion would actually be that the main character is one of few people not affected by the artifact piece,

One of the later characters and their locale are apparently not affected by their local artefact piece, which forms part of the second stage of the plot.

[vespuleth]

good to see we are at least somewhat thinking on the same lines. i have a few more questions, but they will have to wait...

[qachyk]

Back on the mechanics side -

Having a mutually opposing elemental magic system is fairly commonplace in RPGs. Would it throw people off to have a NON-mutually opposing elemental system?

What I mean is, in the standard mutually-opposing one, fire creatures would be weak to ice and ice creatures weak to fire. In a non-mutually opposing one, fire creatures would be weak to water but water creatures would be weak to earth, not fire. (For instance.)

Or, for people who follow such things, instead of a Western elemental system, I'm thinking of borrowing the Chinese one.

[Doan the Nado]

I would like this kind of magic system. Sort of a rock, paper, scissors scenario.

[Deleted]

That's been done before in Saiyuki, Fire Emblem, Hoshigami, Yuji: Light Warrior (Cloud's game), and probably more I can't think of. It works pretty well if it makes sense, but if it doesn't make sense (like the example you gave) it will only irritate the player immensely. In the long run, elements used in a game usually have very little effect on the gameplay, and the battle system, skill system, level system, etc. are what really need to be focused on.

And, take it from me since my story's been developing for the last 2.5 years, don't be afraid to scrap any ideas if you don't think they're good. You should give yourself some time away from thinking about these ideas, and then come back (in 2 or more weeks or so) and see what you think of them then. If you give yourself more time and don't try to rush a story together in a week you'll get better ideas, and flesh them out better too. It's just never really a good idea to start the game off with a fetchquest, or at least, there're many, many, many other better ways to do it. It's important to keep in mind that this is the very first part of the game someone's going to play, and most people get extremely turned off by fecthquests filled with cliches.

(I scrapped 4 game ideas in 2 months before starting on Paladin, and I'm extremely glad I did, but oh well...)

Edit: This may help some: doansdomain.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=Games&action=display&thread=1100047846