Top Secret or Open Source? The Password Debate

[Rodak]

<><><>
EDIT:
<><><>

Can a moderator please correct my typographical errors in the poll question. I can't edit that from my lowly position.

Thanks!

<><><>
END EDIT
<><><>

The Great Password Debate now has a home.

I often wonder why people like Passwords so much.

I only used one on my first demo because it had so much unfinished crap it was embarrassing. But everything since has been "open source" demos.

At least I never have to worry about forgetting it!

I have learned much by studying scripts from games and demos that were uploaded without a Passwordd (and even games / demos to which I wound up with the Passwordd elsehow).

It was that experience that led me to my No Passwords For Me policy. Perhaps I can help others.

But what do you all think?

What is your motivations either way?

This started in Doyleman's forum, so I'll post a quote from that to show some of my ideas and see if anyone has any thoughts (the italics are Doyleman's responses):

rodak said:

I understand the motivation, but from my twisted point of view:


1) people could possibly take the game, edit it here and there, and say its their own.

I've heard that one the most. I say I'd take it as the compliment that it is should that ever happen to me.

2) an open, non Passwordded game is asking for people to cheat.

Let 'em. Gameshark and Codebreakers stuff sells very well. It's all so people can cheat. They like to cheat. It's a part of gaming for many people.

3) I like my secret stuff to retain 'secret' in game (yes, there are many more secrets than those I listed)

I dare say "Pointless." That's why Prima and the like sell big books detailing all the secrets in "real" games. When I played through Final Fantasy 9 recently (found it and the book at a yard sale for $5!) I would play a bit, go back and read the book to see what "Secrets" I missed, and replay.

Replay value is greatly increased by secrets, but only if you can eventually know where they are.

I'm breaking form and voting first in my own poll!

Vote for No Passwordds!

[NASH7777]

1) people could possibly take the game, edit it here and there, and say its their own.

1-rodak)I've heard that one the most. I say I'd take it as the compliment that it is should that ever happen to me.

1-nash) There's certain techniques and things that I don't want people to steal w/o my permission. Like the battle system. Not that the average person could make sense out of it anyways.

2) an open, non passworded game is asking for people to cheat.

2 Rodak)Let 'em. Gameshark and Codebreakers stuff sells very well. It's all so people can cheat. They like to cheat. It's a part of gaming for many people.

2-Nash) Yeah but they have to pay for Gmaeshark and people have to make the codes. Just have your password buried in your game secretly so peopl ehave to earn access atleast. But yeah I want people to actually have to BEAT my game legally, then they can unlock cheats and stuff.

3) I like my secret stuff to retain 'secret' in game (yes, there are many more secrets than those I listed)

3-Rodak)I dare say "Pointless." That's why Prima and the like sell big books detailing all the secrets in "real" games. When I played through Final Fantasy 9 recently (found it and the book at a yard sale for $5!) I would play a bit, go back and read the book to see what "Secrets" I missed, and replay.Replay value is greatly increased by secrets, but only if you can eventually know where they are.

3-Nash) secrets are more rewarding when you discover them yourself. And there's some things in my games that I don't want the average person seeing, i'll tip the right people off of who I do want to see it.

[The Smurf]

no splunge option, rodak?

anyway, i usually password protect my games.

2-Nash) Yeah but they have to pay for Gmaeshark and people have to make the codes. Just have your password buried in your game secretly so peopl ehave to earn access atleast. But yeah I want people to actually have to BEAT my game legally, then they can unlock cheats and stuff.

i agree here.

3-Nash) secrets are more rewarding when you discover them yourself. And there's some things in my games that I don't want the average person seeing, i'll tip the right people off of who I do want to see it.

i agree here.

1-nash) There's certain techniques and things that I don't want people to steal w/o my permission. Like the battle system. Not that the average person could make sense out of it anyways.

i would agree here if i had anything worth stealing...

but i admit i do do this:

I would play a bit, go back and read the book to see what "Secrets" I missed, and replay.

quite often...more so than i'd like.

i vote for password protection, only because it keeps everything safe from anyone wanting to steal it, but i can always give it to somebody if i want to.

At least I never have to worry about forgetting it!

good point, but i have it saved on my comp and have it backed up, so i don't have to worry too much.


-the smurf

[doyleman]

I will say that I find this to be a some what pointless debate, almost like if cheddar cheese is better than mozeralla, it's opinion. But here I go. While you may find it a compliment for others to want to take your game upon themselves and use your hard work at their ease, the whole whatever time you spent to make the game, I happen to cherish and like to keep my 400 hr. investment in my game locked up so that no one may re edit the game in some 30 hours or so. As for the cheating, I absolutely don't tolerate it. I can't understand why people do it, it takes the complete fun out of games, save for the humor or cutscenes in it, but is that really fun? I think not. I want my game to be played with the full set difficulty and presets. Again, let's put in some year to make a game only for some one to beat it in an hour because he/she can't tolerate some difficulties. Lastly, the 'secrets' area; Have you really seen a prima guide for any game made on RPGM2? Sure, there's nash's, but he made it, so it was his wish to help those whom had trouble. I also figure that using a walkthrough or guide through a game from lack of patience makes the entire game play experience worth nothing. I can understand if the person was stuck on a particularily mind boggling puzzle for a day, but using it to 'glide' through a game seriously defeats the game's purpose itself, I think.

If you found anything offensive, I apologize, but in all honesty, this is one of those 'matter of opinoin' deals.

then again, i spose that's all a debate is...

[Bigfoot]

I agree to a point that cheating in a RPGM2 is untolerable if the game is very balanced. That means that they worked hard for a balanced game, and for someone not to apreciate that.

But if someone cheated in a game like.... I don't know, Hippy Hunt 2, I wouldn't care because the DBS sucked in it anyways.

[doyleman]

, well, I really thought the only 'hard' part was the last 3 bosses (i think it was three), but that was almost what I'd figure to be the best stat set up for a boss, as it had that 'almost close to death, I hope that this blow finishes that boss off now' feeling, as did the squid. It was really the random battles that were off cue, that and the insane level ups from each boss

Anyway, I believe gameshark only supplies 'inf money, max stats, etc.', it can't do a 'get player' very well, as you guessed it, it would be uncertain as people make the games.

[Jugem]

bigfoot721 said:

But if someone cheated in a game like.... I don't know, Hippy Hunt 2, I wouldn't care because the DBS sucked in it anyways.

How true is that, lol. Anyway, I put passwords in. I don't know why, but I do. Just so people can't see how inefficient I script things. Just kidding of course. I just do it out of habit I guess. I'll have to rethink whether or not to actually put a password in my future games.

[Dungeon Warden]

I want to password protect my main game because I don't want the experience ruined for the player. I suppose it is ultimately the players choice but I would prefer it if people play my game through once before giving the password so the can see how it was done. A guide book might be helpful for finding secrets or getting through puzzles. That's better then just letting the player break into the game code.

You could also do the game that same way Fu-Ma does and not label anything and have complex scripts that are hard to follow. There are ways to bury scripts you don't want people to find.

Most of my single shot games I didn't password protect since they are designed for other people to use.

[Rodak]

This is, of course, just a way to get opinions.

I understand all the motivations to use passwords, and many make sense.

I only mentioned the Final Fantasy 9 example because there is No Way I'd want to replay a game that huge. The guide allowed me to "play it twice" efficiently. I played it "my way" then retraced to catch the stuff I missed by using the guide. I think this made the game a more enjoyable experience as there was much I would have missed.

RPGM2 games don't reach that level of hugeness so I guess it's OK to expect people to replay, but it is not in my nature to do so (except with non-games like Tetris and good mini games). Replay time is huge when you can poke around the system and see how various things were done.

I like DungeonWarden's idea of obscuring things you do not want found easily. That is pretty much how my stuff is organized anyhow. I work in a non-linear fashion and name things in silly manners.

This was pretty much started by diddling with RPGM3 where the option does not exist. That got me thinking about why those who like them use passwords.

Thus this topic.

I only made it a poll for poops and chuckles.

More opinions are welcome.

Peace.

[christi]

hhm. i'd have to say that i don't really have any strong feelings toward or against passwords. i guess i can see both sides of the issue...

i've never implemented a password into my game, primarily because i'm the only one that's ever seen it. that isn't to say that i won't password-protect my game before its release, though.

my primary reasoning would be that, with a typical game, you aren't given the option to go and poke around with all of its internal mechanisms. you play the game, if you get stuck, you look on the internet or at a strategy guide, you ask a friend... (or, in the case of us rpgm2ers, you ask the creator. now, there's a luxury most gamers aren't afforded!)

as far as stealing games/scripts, i'm not particularly worried about that... i think that we've all been more than generous with our scripting knowledge... at least to other board members. if someone here discovered how to use bag items in the DBS, for example, the first thing they'd likely do is share it with everyone.

oh... and i didn't vote because my computer wouldn't let me. but my vote is for "i do not care either way..."

[Kumo Shinagi]

I believe in passwords for protecting matarials of the creator.

If you want to use something from a game, there should be open source engine files made available.

For example, Nash's ABS in it's basic fashion with nothing but the system and some notes on how to implement it., made into a downloadable save file.

[Doan the Nado]

I, too, feel that in most cases, the game should be Password-protected. I don't have it that way by default, but when I go to upload it, I'm sure to protect it. Why? Well, for most of the reasons already listed. As a matter of principle, if someone is going to use something of mine, I'd like to first know and grant them permission. For example, if I ever get my CBS running (haven't done any scripting for it, just a lot of notes jotted down here and there) and someone happens to like it, I wouldn't mind sharing the general idea of how I accomplished various things. I just would not like somebody to go in without my knowledge and see and copy everything I've done, especially if that person is not a member of this board.

Another reason has to do with a certain artistic element. When the player plays the game, they see an environment that I created in its fully-functional, populated state. There's some kind of mystique in just seeing it all together, and when you can go in and look at the map editor or object placement editor and see the basics of a complex area, it takes a little something away from it.

Yeah, so I Password protect my games, but if one of you guys want to take a look at my stuff, I wouldn't hesitate to PM you my Password.

p.s. Sorry, Rodak, but I don't see any option to modify the poll question, although maybe I could try using the censored words list...

Edit: Yep, that worked.

[BloodKnight]

I protect my games with Passwords so no one can:

1)Steal my work.
2)See how I did everything(very few people actually know how to do EVERYTHING possible in RPG Maker 2, most people probably wouldn't be able to make sense of most of the scripts anyway).
3)Edit my game in any way(they might as well make their own game... )

Those are my reasons. RPG Maker 2 is one of those creation tools that can create some pretty unique things. I guess you can also say I want to "conserve my worth" as a maker and that can be considered selfish. I did ponder releasing a template, so people can make a default game with advanced features and such without having to take the time to script everything themselves, but then I thought "Why bother? Most people didn't even take advantage of the scripting FAQ when it was released.".

[Rodak]

WOW, we can't say Password anymore... What Have I done???

Let me try this way: Pass word.

It worked!

This reminds me of when AOL had to ban "the word I can no longer say" from their list of Pass Words because too many people chose it and got hacked.

Back on topic...

I guess my point of view comes from hanging around scientists more than any other creative group. The very notion of withholding how something was done just does not work in that field. Fine artists are always willing to share their techniques too.

But these boards do serve the same purpose that the scientific journals do for sharing knowledge. I've never seen anyone here (or even elsewhere) refuse to answer someone's question on proprietary grounds.

So long as the openness of this community continues I'll never complain about the use of passwords, but given the fact that I was able to learn new things from poking around some open source games I do advocate the open script concept (ironically, Doyleman's Zelda Game Demo had no password when I downloaded the earlier version and I even thanked him for posting it that way in his forum at the time) (I have not (yet) checked the updated version).

In the world of Fine Art, if plagiarism happens it is usually caught by others of that community pretty fast and the perpetrators quickly ostracized.

I suspect the same thing would happen here, but why make it easy?

My answer to that would be that I think of RPGMakers as the only truly educational video games out there. They are not a programming language by any stretch of the imagination, but they do teach the basics of computer programming logic and we need people with logic skills in this world (and especially in this Country {America... no offense to our more geographically spread out friends, you guys need smart people too!} where our economy is in trouble and high tech stuff is being outsourced world wide because Big Business says there are not enough skilled workers here).

So I promote anything that can get people to learn Logic skills no matter what it's disguise.

Ooh... Philosophy on a game board.

Whooda thunk?

Peace.

[doyleman]

So long as the openness of this community continues I'll never complain about the use of Passwordds, but given the fact that I was able to learn new things from poking around some open source games I do advocate the open script concept (ironically, Doyleman's Zelda Game Demo had no Passwordd when I downloaded the earlier version and I even thanked him for posting it that way in his forum at the time) (I have not (yet) checked the updated version).

In the world of Fine Art, if plagiarism happens it is usually caught by others of that community pretty fast and the perpetrators quickly ostracized.

I suspect the same thing would happen here, but why make it easy?

My answer to that would be that I think of RPGMakers as the only truly educational video games out there. They are not a programming language by any stretch of the imagination, but they do teach the basics of computer programming logic and we need people with logic skills in this world (and especially in this Country {America... no offense to our more geographically spread out friends, you guys need smart people too!} where our economy is in trouble and high tech stuff is being outsourced world wide because Big Business says there are not enough skilled workers here).

, Well, I had a worse case of forgetting then, but luckily I left it unlocked as nash pointed out when he had my mem card that I started link in the lost woods rather than where link is spose to be. But he then even forgot to password it, so yeah, but to be honest, I am ashamed of my lack of talent shown in that early demo of zelda .

I apologize for my earlier post, I think we need more debates actually, could help with what's good or not...

anyway, later

[Doan the Nado]

I fixed the password problem and modified a couple posts. Basically, "Passwor" is now in the censored word list, to be changed to "Password". Because "Passwor" is part of Password, it was changing it to Passwordd. There was an option to censor only whole words, though, so when I enabled that, it fixed the problem. So now if a censored word is part of a word, it won't censor it; the censored word must be the whole word.

As far as your points, Rodak, I agree to an extent. Like you said, it is important to share the techniques with others who are interested. In the Computer Science world, improved algorithms (mostly in terms of efficiency) are often shared among the entire community and taught to future generations. That does not mean, however, that Microsoft is going to give out their source code for Windows. They may make a few discoveries along the way of creating such a large program and decide that such information should be shared, but they would never publicly provide the code for the current version of one of their programs. I feel that this is what our debate is akin to. That is why I say that I have no problem putting out FAQs and giving general answers of how I did things, but I'm not just going to give away my work.

Along those lines, I've found in the past that if you allow newbies to just copy what you've done, it creates even more work for you because they then do not know how to fix it when it doesn't work right, or how to add on and increase the functionality. That is why in my FAQs I try to describe what everything is doing and make sure that those implementing my creations know what's going on and what can be done to improve upon it. So yeah, there's just a few more of my cents...

[Rodak]

admin said:

I've found in the past that if you allow newbies to just copy what you've done, it creates even more work for you because they then do not know how to fix it when it doesn't work right, or how to add on and increase the functionality.

You are indeed wise in that point. I gotta admit that is the only statement so far that has given me pause!

About Macrohard though... That's Money. RPGM2 is not on that level in my opinion. I still understand all the motivations for using them, and am not surprised by the poll ratings at all.

As I said, it just seemed an interesting topic on which to hear some thoughts.

Peace.

[Dungeon Warden]

About Macrohard though... That's Money.

Actually it isn't about money (well, maybe it is a little), but about hackers. If someone had the source code for windows they could create all kinds of security bugs, Trojans, worms, and other hacks that would make Windows useless (which would lose MS money).

There is something about creative people that makes them want to protect their work from others that isn't often found in the scientific community as much. Something to do with all the hard work and creativity you had to put into creating something. It's one thing to explain an idea or concept, it is another to let someone else benefit from your hard work.

Because RPG Maker 2 is a hard system to grasp for some people, it would be pretty hard for someone to steal anything. As Doan said, it the person doesn't understand the process, they will need to ask questions of the creator. If the person does understand it, they already have the ability to create there own scripts and won't need to steal it (although as Rodak said, it's nice to be able to look at what others have done and learn from them.)

That's my two cents on the topic.

[thetruecoolness]

I have to agree with Rodak on this one. Maybe on the first demo I would put a password, cause my scripts would be so ugly no one would be able to figure them out, but beyond that, since I released it first people would know it's mine and that would be the end of that debate. If someone ends up making a better game out of my system then I do, more power to them, yeah my pride might be hurt a bit, but at least my contribution helped someone. Now of course people who don't give me credit for blatently stealing my idea I would have a problem with, but I'm sure if someone really wanted to steal your stuff they could crack your password. I still think helping a few people out by not having a password is worth having to shoot down a couple of people claiming they created my game.

As for the cheating, if people want to change variables and stuff to get through my game, I have no problem with that. We are like authors in that we create the original work, but everyone is able to have their own experience with it. You can skim a great book if you want and just get that out of it, the author doesn't try to find ways to make you not able to skip ahead so you will be force to read it the way he wanted, so why should an RPG be any different. Cheating is only hurting the player if they really wanted to play through it, and most people will not cheat out of principle, but if they want to at some time, who should stop them, or say they are playing your game "incorrectly". I personally don't ever cheat unless I've already beaten something, just to have more fun with the game by doing things I was never able to do, but there have been occasions where I just couldn't beat something and it would have been frustrating to try all the possiblities, so I looked it up in GameFaqs.

I say you're secret things have just as much value if people complete the inane, and typically tedious tasks required to get them, because in the end it's not the secret that mattered, but the work to get there. And if people never find it normally then they'll never see it and it will be lost, so why not give those people a chance to experience it too, just without the satisfaction of completing the task to get it. So really the secret is only half of the satisfaction, and sometimes pales in comparison to the task itself.

I think sometimes we forget that the bottom line is it's up to the player to define what they get out of our game. We set up the initial story, and some of the rules, but from there it's up to them to draw their own conclusions, so there is no point in game developers trying to so limit the game that they can't play it in their own way. Yes I would rather not have people cheat, and go in different paths than I want them to, but at a cetain point it's up to them what they want to get out of your game, this shouldn't be a one way conversation with the player, but a kind of two way discussion.

And for now I leave all my creations open source, since that is what helped me get to the level of knowledge, so why not give something back.

Now I do understand a lot of the arguments against open source, and it's not always the best thing, but I believe in this case there is no harm done, and since you can't turn a profit on these, why not make it open. A lot of time's being so scared of having you're idea stolen can lead to stagnation in an industry, because if you horde it then what use is it to everyone else, though of course their are other ways to doing this than just releasing the source. So though I don't think people personal opinions will change on this, just thought I would add in my two cents, and add another voice to Rodak's side. And once I finally get up enough to call a Demo I'll be releasing it without a password (Wish I didn't have 3 semester long group projects again, and didn't keep getting sidetracked with other things, but eventually I'll finish, just might be a year or so from now).

In a slight bit of irony, it's kind of funny how many security flaws, and exploits have been found in Windows over the years that they have to keep patching even though there source is closed. Just shows that if someone wants to do something malicious they'll find a way to. Linux seems to do pretty well on it's own, though of course since less people use it you don't hear about as many security problems, which I'm sure it has its share as well. But just goes to prove that even with all the code available it's still pretty secure. And you don't see too many people parading around acting like they created Linux. Just though I would provide an interesting counter example to the security and theft debate. So it still is mainly about money, since it's hard to sell something that anyone can look at and modify. But you can still make some money by selling Documentation, and Membership in exclusive development clubs .

[vespuleth]

in the open source development communities, we pass out source to aide in the learning process, but your pretty much on your own from there. if you ask too many 'hows this work' and 'whats this do' questions, youll get ignored, and probably ostracized (sp??). but programming communities can be pretty ... niche. (also, for the record, people that exploit software deficiencies are crackers [they crack the code] not hackers; hackers is a certain programming [and some argue problem solving and life-] style). typically, if youve been brave enough to access source, your best bet is to play around with stuff and see what it does. im neutral on password protection. some of my stuff is, others isnt. it depends on why im doing it. but that doesnt mean i will not be willing to help someone duplicate (or even provide full source) something i have done; it all depends on how much they are trying to learn, if at all. if they just want handouts, they get nothin, imo.