romance in stories (and games)

[vespuleth]

so this conversation(and i hope it becomes a full conversation, rather than mulled over, as i am torn and dont think the subject is yet covered) is going to take place in three different places, and I hope everyone will do their best to keep up with all three places. why three? because I am always torn between posting information in my personal forum, my website, or the general forums made available for discussion. I've decided that my opinions will in raw form be logged here, while as they are concentrated, i will be placing them on my blog. where this conversation deals specifically with my game production, I will be placing it in my forum, more in the format that my website carries. so this will be the primary place to read up. (of course all three will likely overlap) that being said:

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how do you feel about romance in stories (books, shorts) and games? it seems that now days most games have a male/female protagonist team and that these two or some other will eventually develop relations not plutonic. is it good story, universal saler, or gratuitous?

i generally feel its gratuitous, but as i write, cannot deny its additions to plot depth, plot twist, and character depth development and emotional attachment of the reader(player). i find myself gravitating toward romantic plot devices with several of my stories. so who is opposed to this trend? who isnt? why or why not? whats proper use and convention? does anyone else ever have this problem, or has anyone attempted to deploy romance? does anyone even care? what are you feelings about games that have dealt with romance? do any stand out in your mind as good or bad examples? what are they?

[doyleman]

I happen to like it. Sure, it's used in almost every rpg, but it adds to it.

the best and biggest game I can think of where it worked nicely was FFX. Not because I'm an FFX fan, but it just seemed like it was good...

[Neo Samurai]

Romance in stories? I happen to like it. In fact, I try to place some element of romance in my stories (If it can work). Being the flirt that I am, I happen to enjoy writing about this kind of stuff.

[NASH7777]

Love and romance is an integral part of life, religion, and natural society. Why shouldn't it be in stories and game? It would seem unnatural without it.

[Doan the Nado]

I think romance and love has its place in stories, but not in every RPG, as most creators seem to think right now. Moreover, I feel like the love is often overly simplified and restricted to one idea, namely that two party characters, a youthful, outspoken, awkward hero boy and a quiet, virtuous girl gradually come to love each other. Likely at some point, the hero will do something uncharacteristic in the name of saving her. I think this is too trite and cliche.

I would like to see more stories that show the kind of dedicated love that exists between a man and his wife, or a father (or mother) and child. I would like to see a display of the love between people who are not in the party. So many games are like, "Sure, I'll join your party," and then the woman who loves the guy is like, "Please bring him back safely." I'd like to see a hard debate/argument that he is too important at home, how will they support themselves, what about the kids, etc; followed by a sound explanation of why he must go on this "adventure", finally followed by a touiching, tearful separation.

I'd like to see one party member secretly like a woman in the party, but it turns out bad in that some other dude who is more forward asks her out and she says, "I'd love to." Alternatively, the girl could just die before he has a chance to ask her out, and then he's on some sort of mission to avenge her, at which points he meets another woman. At first he is reluctant to love her (it feels like betrayal or something), but after a while he begins to have feelings for her despite himself, and then he decides that he better not let the same thing happen this time, and at this point he divulges his growing love for her.

I'd like to see a mother not let her son go on a crazy quest because of her love for him. There would be an argument, because the kid just sees his parent saying no. At some point, though, his love for her causes him to ultimately listen to her and respect her wishes to stay home. But then, he learns of some evil plot that implies harm to his mother, and then his love causes him to go against his mother's wishes and do what he must to save her (or the village, or the world, or whatever applies).

I just feel like there are so many complex love themes that go unexplored, while the same tired one is repeated over and over. Love is an integral and awesome part of any story, but it is much better when it is realistic, complicated, and different every time.

[Bigfoot]

There are many games with romance and love stories. But barely any seem to capture my attention. (I was one of the few who didn't care when Aeris died.) Most games with romance, mainly RPG's just have a love story with some quiet silent hero, then runs accross some high spirited bimbo that forces herself into your party for no apparent reason, then bam! Babies.

I for one am quite sick of this cliche. I enjoy romance more games like the Metal Gear Solid series. I like how Snake and Meryl fell in love on the battle field in one, but it goes deeper than that. Its not really like that there in a relationship at the end, but more that they have deep feelings for eachother. I am curious to see how it progresses in 4.

But there can be more love in games, etc. than just romance. Like Doan said, I too would like to see more of a dedicated love that exists beforehand, such as parents and there children, etc. Back to the Metal Gear series, in MGS2 there is a very heart breaking story between Otacon (Hal Emmerich) and his little sister Emma Emmerich. The entire story was so sad, when she ****Spoiler**** died *****spoiler end******* I almost cried. (Yeah I'm a .)

I'm sorry that I couldn't really put some input into the other catagories such at movies and novels. Because I don't watch many movies and I haven't read a book in over a year.

[Neo Samurai]

I feel like the love is often overly simplified and restricted to one idea, namely that two party characters, a youthful, outspoken, awkward hero boy and a quiet, virtuous girl gradually come to love each other.

I can name many, MANY RPGs that have used this cliche over and over again. Quite frankly, it annoys me. Not just the fact that it's repeated, but it's so unrealistic. Now, I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, but the chances are slim to none.

If there's one cliche that my games won't include, it's this one.

[Rodak]

I like it in other people's games, but I use animals for characters and might get in trouble using love too much!

Would get in trouble.

OK, Will probably get Banned if I ever finish and release The Clean Underwear Quest!

Well, maybe not banned, but certainly given a good talking to!

[vespuleth]

yeah, i agree doan, and well, ive explored some of these options... *cough*... i will be back to this in a bit.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I like what Doan said. Love's a big part of life, but the usual story of (games) what they said and (movies) Guy does something wrong - Guy tries to win girl back and does are annoying, and simply put, uninspired. Where's the emotion? The pain? The suffering? The agony? How do I as a person grow from this? This is why I say Scrubs is the best tv show in history: past, present, and future!!

I don't really like the word love so much as emotion. I think the best way to define love is caring about someone a whole lot, which can happen in all sorts of ways, even if neither person is willing to say the word 'love' regarding each other.

Basically, if it fits and improves the story, go for it; just don't force it. I'll explain my point here using Final Fantasy X and Tales of Symphonia as my examples:

*SPOILERS*
Final Fantasy X (hefty spoilers) and Tales of Symphonia (very light spoilers)
*SPOILERS*

Please skip it if you haven't finished FFX. It REALLY spoils it!

As many know, both of them use the plot device of Collete/Yuna needing to sacrifice themself in order to save the world, and Lloyd/Tidus refusing to let them die and trying to find another way to save the world. The difference is that FFX spent the whole time trying to (first) get you well acquainted with Yuna, (then) showing Yuna and Tidus's relationship develop and become stronger, (then) to sympathize with Yuna and not want her to suffer; where as ToS lacked guidance/direction and didn't do anything along those lines. The reason why I and Doyleman are satisfied with FFX's romance is because it fit well with the original idea and improved it by getting you attached to Yuna and Tidus before threatening to kill Yuna. This, of course, brings me back to my How to Make a Good Story guide, because the romance (in FFX's case) strengthened the theme (losing someone dear?), where as something trite/cliche/uninspired like what the others said would weaken the story.

*End Spoilers*

Like, for example, Doan's example of

"I'd like to see a mother not let her son go on a crazy quest because of her love for him. There would be an argument, because the kid just sees his parent saying no. At some point, though, his love for her causes him to ultimately listen to her and respect her wishes to stay home. But then, he learns of some evil plot that implies harm to his mother, and then his love causes him to go against his mother's wishes and do what he must to save her (or the village, or the world, or whatever applies)."

Would improve the story by making the protagonist (son) seem more real, show that he has a reason to live and real emotions, and subtly make the player relate to the character better because the player likely has a mother like that.

[vespuleth]

Okay, so I haven't addressed this in a while. Here is the deal:

I am editing (read rewriting) Phoenix Pinion, and some elements that were previously not a part of the story are slowly working their way in. This is in the nature of classic romance, not familial devotion. Just so when/if you ever read the story, you'll know that not all of it was inspired here, I am going to say that a large portion of the story has always been anchored in a sort of [sordid] familial devotion. I won't say more because this information and the title of the story (quickly becoming a short novel(l?)a) probably reveal far more than I want. So anyways, the tone of the story is love in general. My question is, if you read a story/played a game that involved such a spectrum of 'classicist love' and familial devotion, would you be annoyed by the entire concept? should the classic love be omitted (this means I would have to a third edit... but all in the interest of good story), or do you think that among the plethora of other emotions represented, it can have its place? I'm going to say that the reason it didn't make the cut in the first place (and why I am having to go back and edit it now) is because I am tired of reading stories about a boy and a girl who imagine themselves in love. thoughts? (did I even ask anything that requires thought?)

[Dungeon Warden]

I see no reason to avoid putting 'classicist love' in your story. If it fits the overall feel of the story then go for it.

I will say that you shouldn't over think these things. Most people read stories and play games for enjoyment. If the story starts to be come tedious, boring, or takes away from the game play (al a Xenosaga), then no one will enjoy it. It is good to weave the story into the game play rather then force the player to endure long cut-scenes and reading a lot of text.

I'm sure you'll do a good job editing the story. Keep on writing.